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Author Topic:   MACROevolution vs MICROevolution - what is it?
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17825
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 346 of 908 (817127)
08-15-2017 1:51 PM
Reply to: Message 344 by Faith
08-15-2017 1:45 PM


Re: Evolution has a built-in stopping point
quote:
Adding gas doesn't destroy what the engine is doing, but adding mutations would destroy existing species.
How would it do that ? This seems a bizarre claim. At what point would the species be "destroyed" and how ? Wolves aren't destroyed despite having at least a good deal of the genetic variety found in dogs. And it is hard to see how one or two or even a dozen minor variations spread through the population could change that.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 344 by Faith, posted 08-15-2017 1:45 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 349 by Faith, posted 08-15-2017 2:14 PM PaulK has replied

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 4411
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 5.4


(1)
Message 347 of 908 (817128)
08-15-2017 2:00 PM
Reply to: Message 343 by Faith
08-15-2017 1:43 PM


Re: Evolution has a built-in stopping point
Doesn't affect what I said about beetles.
quote:
The original beetle probably had no junk DNA for starters and many genes for every trait. That would very likely be quite enough to account for that many different species without any mutations at all.
What you said about beetles is incorrect. You made it up. It is complete fantasy without a single shred of evidence and is not supported by a single study in the whole history of scientific research.
This is a science forum, not a fantastical imaginary make up any dimwitted idea forum.

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python
One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie
If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy
The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq

This message is a reply to:
 Message 343 by Faith, posted 08-15-2017 1:43 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 348 by Faith, posted 08-15-2017 2:11 PM Tanypteryx has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1465 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 348 of 908 (817130)
08-15-2017 2:11 PM
Reply to: Message 347 by Tanypteryx
08-15-2017 2:00 PM


Re: Evolution has a built-in stopping point
So I'm not allowed to give an alternative explanation or hypothesis here, only the establishment view is allowed. Well, that figures.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 347 by Tanypteryx, posted 08-15-2017 2:00 PM Tanypteryx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 350 by Coyote, posted 08-15-2017 2:17 PM Faith has replied
 Message 354 by Tanypteryx, posted 08-15-2017 2:26 PM Faith has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1465 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 349 of 908 (817131)
08-15-2017 2:14 PM
Reply to: Message 346 by PaulK
08-15-2017 1:51 PM


Re: Evolution has a built-in stopping point
Oh come on. If you have an established breed you don't want alien genes messing it up, that's the whole point of reproductive isolation. Nature doesn't "care" but the fact is that species in the wild do have established identities that do persist, but that couldn't persist if mutations kept changing their look. So we know it doesn't happen, unless a separate population is formed by selection which eliminates the former phenotypes and then you have yet a new species with the usual loss of genetic diversity.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 346 by PaulK, posted 08-15-2017 1:51 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 355 by PaulK, posted 08-15-2017 2:27 PM Faith has replied
 Message 364 by Taq, posted 08-15-2017 3:01 PM Faith has replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2127 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 350 of 908 (817132)
08-15-2017 2:17 PM
Reply to: Message 348 by Faith
08-15-2017 2:11 PM


Re: Evolution has a built-in stopping point
So I'm not allowed to give an alternative explanation or hypothesis here, only the establishment view is allowed. Well, that figures.
Not all alternatives are of equal value, not are they supported equally by scientific evidence.
"The moon is made of green cheese" is a good example. It is an alternative explanation without any scientific evidence to support it, hence its value is nil.
Many of your "alternatives" fall in the same category.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.
Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other points of view--William F. Buckley Jr.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 348 by Faith, posted 08-15-2017 2:11 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 351 by Faith, posted 08-15-2017 2:18 PM Coyote has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1465 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 351 of 908 (817133)
08-15-2017 2:18 PM
Reply to: Message 350 by Coyote
08-15-2017 2:17 PM


Re: Evolution has a built-in stopping point
My alternative theory has been very well supported.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 350 by Coyote, posted 08-15-2017 2:17 PM Coyote has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 352 by Coyote, posted 08-15-2017 2:20 PM Faith has replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2127 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 352 of 908 (817135)
08-15-2017 2:20 PM
Reply to: Message 351 by Faith
08-15-2017 2:18 PM


Re: Evolution has a built-in stopping point
My alternative theory has been very well supported.
Creationist fantasies and scripture are not scientific evidence.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.
Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other points of view--William F. Buckley Jr.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 351 by Faith, posted 08-15-2017 2:18 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 353 by Faith, posted 08-15-2017 2:23 PM Coyote has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1465 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 353 of 908 (817136)
08-15-2017 2:23 PM
Reply to: Message 352 by Coyote
08-15-2017 2:20 PM


Re: Evolution has a built-in stopping point
What I've said here is just genetic facts, haven't even mentioned the Bible.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 352 by Coyote, posted 08-15-2017 2:20 PM Coyote has not replied

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 4411
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 5.4


(1)
Message 354 of 908 (817138)
08-15-2017 2:26 PM
Reply to: Message 348 by Faith
08-15-2017 2:11 PM


Re: Evolution has a built-in stopping point
Faith writes:
So I'm not allowed to give an alternative explanation or hypothesis here, only the establishment view is allowed. Well, that figures.
The EVIDENCE refutes your "explanation." It belongs in an imaginary fantasy forum.

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python
One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie
If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy
The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq

This message is a reply to:
 Message 348 by Faith, posted 08-15-2017 2:11 PM Faith has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17825
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


(1)
Message 355 of 908 (817139)
08-15-2017 2:27 PM
Reply to: Message 349 by Faith
08-15-2017 2:14 PM


Re: Evolution has a built-in stopping point
quote:
If you have an established breed you don't want alien genes messing it up, that's the whole point of reproductive isolation.
You are making no sense. Why would the new alleles be "alien" ? How would they "mess up" the species ? Why is it "not wanted" ?
quote:
Nature doesn't "care" but the fact is that species in the wild do have established identities that can't persist if mutations kept changing their look.
I can't help but notice that you didn't answer my question. How would a dozen minor variations - in addition to those already there, spread through the population as I suggested - "keep changing their look" ?
quote:
So we know it doesn't happen
Well we know that the look doesn't drastically change but since that could easily be true if new variations were being added it's rather hard to attribute any significance to it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 349 by Faith, posted 08-15-2017 2:14 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 356 by Faith, posted 08-15-2017 2:35 PM PaulK has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1465 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 356 of 908 (817140)
08-15-2017 2:35 PM
Reply to: Message 355 by PaulK
08-15-2017 2:27 PM


Re: Evolution has a built-in stopping point
Scattered mutations don't change a species, it takes selection to do that. But in the case of breeding, breeders don't want anything to change their breed even a mutation.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 355 by PaulK, posted 08-15-2017 2:27 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 357 by PaulK, posted 08-15-2017 2:36 PM Faith has not replied
 Message 358 by Taq, posted 08-15-2017 2:52 PM Faith has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17825
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 357 of 908 (817141)
08-15-2017 2:36 PM
Reply to: Message 356 by Faith
08-15-2017 2:35 PM


Re: Evolution has a built-in stopping point
quote:
Scattered mutations don't change a species, it takes selection to do that.
Exactly my point. I'm glad you see your error.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 356 by Faith, posted 08-15-2017 2:35 PM Faith has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10038
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.4


Message 358 of 908 (817142)
08-15-2017 2:52 PM
Reply to: Message 356 by Faith
08-15-2017 2:35 PM


Re: Evolution has a built-in stopping point
Faith writes:
Scattered mutations don't change a species, it takes selection to do that.
Yes, selection of new mutations that increase genetic diversity.
But in the case of breeding, breeders don't want anything to change their breed even a mutation.
Every offspring they produce has mutations their parents didn't have.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 356 by Faith, posted 08-15-2017 2:35 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 360 by Faith, posted 08-15-2017 2:57 PM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10038
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.4


Message 359 of 908 (817143)
08-15-2017 2:55 PM
Reply to: Message 344 by Faith
08-15-2017 1:45 PM


Re: Evolution has a built-in stopping point
Faith writes:
Adding gas doesn't destroy what the engine is doing, but adding mutations would destroy existing species.
In our analogy, you are saying that driving another foot destroys the purpose of driving to the spot you were previously at.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 344 by Faith, posted 08-15-2017 1:45 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 363 by Faith, posted 08-15-2017 2:59 PM Taq has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1465 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 360 of 908 (817144)
08-15-2017 2:57 PM
Reply to: Message 358 by Taq
08-15-2017 2:52 PM


Re: Evolution has a built-in stopping point
Yes, selection of new mutations that increase genetic diversity.
Selection which must decrease that very genetic diversity.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 358 by Taq, posted 08-15-2017 2:52 PM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 362 by Taq, posted 08-15-2017 2:59 PM Faith has not replied

  
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