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Author Topic:   MACROevolution vs MICROevolution - what is it?
Faith
Member
Posts: 32898
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 391 of 908 (817245)
08-16-2017 1:32 AM
Reply to: Message 389 by dwise1
08-16-2017 1:13 AM


Re: Evolution has a built-in stopping point
No, that is a false analogy. losing genetic diversity in the emergence of a population with new phenotypic characteristics is not just a matter of addition plus subtraction.; The loss is NECESSARY to the formation of the new population, it can't happen unless there is such a loss, and that's why continued selection would eventually have to arrive at a point where further evolution couldn't occur. It's not a matter of add and subtract.

A big part of the problem here seems to be that this is the first time you've ever encountered my argument. However, I don't know what your evolution simulating program does or how same or different it is from Dawkins.' When I joined this conversation I commented on having seen Dawkins' program demonstrated some time ago and it was clear that it represented the usual idea of unimpeded microevolution becoming macroevolution without any recognition of the necessary loss of genetic diversity. And so far nothing you've said shows that your program takes it into account either.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 389 by dwise1, posted 08-16-2017 1:13 AM dwise1 has responded

Replies to this message:
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 Message 406 by dwise1, posted 08-16-2017 10:18 AM Faith has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 32898
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 392 of 908 (817246)
08-16-2017 1:35 AM
Reply to: Message 390 by dwise1
08-16-2017 1:23 AM


Re: Evolution has a built-in stopping point
Gosh you make a lot of snarky assertions, without one iota of actual substance.
This message is a reply to:
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PaulK
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Posts: 15371
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 393 of 908 (817247)
08-16-2017 1:42 AM
Reply to: Message 387 by Faith
08-16-2017 12:55 AM


Re: Evolution has a built-in stopping point
quote:

The gas analogy doesn't work

Why not ? We have a supposedly limited resource but we have something that keeps replenishing it. That's exactly the case. And the mere fact of replenishment is enough to show that evolution doesn't have a built-in stopping point.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 387 by Faith, posted 08-16-2017 12:55 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 394 by Faith, posted 08-16-2017 1:46 AM PaulK has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 32898
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 394 of 908 (817248)
08-16-2017 1:46 AM
Reply to: Message 393 by PaulK
08-16-2017 1:42 AM


Re: Evolution has a built-in stopping point
That's been answered a million times already. I know you aren't stupid so you must keep asking it to distract from the argument.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 393 by PaulK, posted 08-16-2017 1:42 AM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
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PaulK
Member
Posts: 15371
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 395 of 908 (817249)
08-16-2017 1:59 AM
Reply to: Message 394 by Faith
08-16-2017 1:46 AM


Re: Evolution has a built-in stopping point
quote:

That's been answered a million times already.

By asserting that the car will run out of fuel even if the tank is kept topped up.

Message 301. Message 306

Or asserting that the rarity of beneficial mutations somehow invalidates it (which would come down to a numbers argument - except the numbers aren't there - and mistakenly ignores neutral and mildly detrimental mutations)

Message 310

quote:

I know you aren't stupid so you must keep asking it to distract from the argument.

I'd have to be stupid to accept those answers. And as I pointed out the mere fact that diversity is replenished - even if it is only occasionally - kills your assertion that evolution must end. Looking at a vital point is hardly a distraction - am I supposed to think that you are too stupid to realise that ?


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DOCJ
Inactive Member


Message 396 of 908 (817251)
08-16-2017 4:02 AM
Reply to: Message 297 by Percy
08-15-2017 7:43 AM


Re: Evolution has a built-in stopping point
Evolution has a built-in stopping point

Where?

I have not seen any evidence suggesting species within any kingdom can produce a new kind.

Here is a quote from the Strong's Hebrew Lexicon regarding kind at
blueletterbible.org.

quote:
Outline of Biblical Usage:
kind, sometimes a species (usually of animals)
Groups of living organisms belong in the samecreated "kind" if they have descended from the same ancestral genepool. This does not preclude new species because this represents apartitioning of the original gene pool. Information is lost orconserved—not gained. A new species could arise when apopulation is isolated and inbreeding occurs. By this definition anew species is not a new "kind" but a further partitioning of anexisting "kind".

https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?...

Strong's Hebrew Lexicon


-DOCJ


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Replies to this message:
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Coyote
Member (Idle past 361 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 397 of 908 (817252)
08-16-2017 4:50 AM
Reply to: Message 391 by Faith
08-16-2017 1:32 AM


Re: Evolution has a built-in stopping point
Loss is necessary?

Not so. What is necessary is change!


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.

Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other points of view--William F. Buckley Jr.


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PaulK
Member
Posts: 15371
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 398 of 908 (817253)
08-16-2017 5:01 AM
Reply to: Message 396 by DOCJ
08-16-2017 4:02 AM


Re: Evolution has a built-in stopping point
I'll say two things.

First the Blue Letter Bible apparently can't tell the difference between modern creationists and ancient Hebrews.

Second, of course evolution can't produce a species with no ancestors, which is what would be required to meet that definition of "kind".

So, pretty pointless.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 396 by DOCJ, posted 08-16-2017 4:02 AM DOCJ has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 418 by DOCJ, posted 08-16-2017 12:24 PM PaulK has responded

    
Percy
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Posts: 18842
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.5


(1)
Message 399 of 908 (817256)
08-16-2017 7:57 AM
Reply to: Message 298 by PaulK
08-15-2017 8:00 AM


Re: Evolution has a built-in stopping point
PaulK writes:

I hope that you mean that there is no overall loss, Percy.

Yes. There's genetic gain and loss happening in populations constantly, and a loss or gain can produce "new varieties or races or breeds or species."

Certainly alleles are removed from the population ...

And added.

It's just that mutation increases variation is overall there is balance (in the species that survive).

Balance, meaning that the amount of genetic information remains unchanged, is probably the least likely possibility.

And I would expect a species formed by the rapid allopathic speciation expected in PE to have less genetic diversity than the parent species (quite likely less than the founding population, IMHO)

PE is just an illusion created by the nature of the fossil record. Sudden appearance in the fossil record must involve many agencies operating both singly and together - allopathic speciation is just one among many.

Faith is fixated on a single scenario and insisting it's the only possible one.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 298 by PaulK, posted 08-15-2017 8:00 AM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 400 by PaulK, posted 08-16-2017 8:10 AM Percy has acknowledged this reply

    
PaulK
Member
Posts: 15371
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 400 of 908 (817258)
08-16-2017 8:10 AM
Reply to: Message 399 by Percy
08-16-2017 7:57 AM


Re: Evolution has a built-in stopping point
quote:

Balance, meaning that the amount of genetic information remains unchanged, is probably the least likely possibility.

Meaning that the amount of variation in the population remains roughly constant - in the sense of fluctuating about a mean rather than never changing.


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 Message 399 by Percy, posted 08-16-2017 7:57 AM Percy has acknowledged this reply

    
JonF
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Posts: 5473
Joined: 06-23-2003
Member Rating: 3.0


(1)
Message 401 of 908 (817260)
08-16-2017 8:40 AM
Reply to: Message 379 by Faith
08-15-2017 6:27 PM


Re: Evolution has a built-in stopping point
This is absurd

Nope.

The understanding that mutations are predominantly neutral, many deleterious and a very very few beneficial is so commonly known I wouldn't expect to have to justify it.

That's true, but irrelevant. They are very rare but that's not enough to support your argument.

The evidence shows us that they aren't too rare to offset loss of genetic diversity. You claim they are too rare to offset that loss. That's the foundation of your claims. If it's false your claims are false.

So it's up to you to produce some analysis or measurements that show they are not just rare but too rare to offset loss of genetic diversity.

But you have none. Because the claim that they are too rare is false.

{ETA} I've deleted those extra forward slashes three times and they keep coming back.

Edited by JonF, : No reason given.

Edited by JonF, : No reason given.

Edited by JonF, : No reason given.

Edited by JonF, : No reason given.

Edited by Admin, : Fix italicized/bold text.


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JonF
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Posts: 5473
Joined: 06-23-2003
Member Rating: 3.0


(1)
Message 402 of 908 (817261)
08-16-2017 8:43 AM
Reply to: Message 383 by Faith
08-15-2017 11:54 PM


Re: Evolution has a built-in stopping point
Even if ALL mutations were beneficial, selection inevitably brings about loss of genetic diversity.

Show your calculations.

Oh, wait, you have no calculations. It's just another of your fantasies.

Each human has something on the order of 100 mutations. That's about 700,000,000,000 in all the humans on earth. Is that not enough to offset the loss of genetic diversity?


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JonF
Member
Posts: 5473
Joined: 06-23-2003
Member Rating: 3.0


(1)
Message 403 of 908 (817262)
08-16-2017 8:45 AM
Reply to: Message 392 by Faith
08-16-2017 1:35 AM


Re: Evolution has a built-in stopping point
Gosh I make a lot of snarky assertions, without one iota of actual substance.

FIFY.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 392 by Faith, posted 08-16-2017 1:35 AM Faith has not yet responded

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 3844
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 404 of 908 (817265)
08-16-2017 9:26 AM


Breeding possibilities
If I were a dog breeding lineage (me, my children, their children, their children...) and selected dogs with short hair and small stature over the years while not selecting too fast and keeping the general population numbers high... I could end up with a small dog with very short hair, yes?

Then, if my lineage decided to change it's selection to dogs with long hair and large stature over the years, again while not selecting too fast and keeping the general population numbers high... I could end up with a large dog with long hair, yes?

Isn't this what Faith is saying is flatly impossible?
That breeding a small dog (or pick whatever feature you want) "loses" the ability of being a large dog (or anything that is not-the-feature-in-question)?

Isn't this done by many breeders today? I thought there were many breeds of things (birds, fish) that were bred in one direction traditionally, but lately breeders have been reversing the trends to give a "shock factor" in their attempts to sell animals? Sort of an "Oh my! A traditionally short-haired dog with long hair! I must buy it, my friends will all be so impressed because they've never seen such a thing!!"

Doesn't such breeding tactics fly directly in the face of Faith's breeding examples for this "loss" she claims to exist?

Or, maybe I'm just not understanding any of the arguments here...

Edited by Stile, : God's will


Replies to this message:
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Percy
Member
Posts: 18842
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 405 of 908 (817266)
08-16-2017 9:40 AM
Reply to: Message 310 by Faith
08-15-2017 11:05 AM


Re: Evolution has a built-in stopping point
Faith writes:

That's one of the ways the analogy breaks down because you are not getting beneficial mutations that frequently...

Just using some ballpark figures, if each individual has 100 mutations, and the probability of a beneficial mutation is 0.000001%, and the population is 1 billion, then there are 1000 beneficial mutations per generation.

A recent study showed the probability of beneficial mutations at the SNP level is far higher than thought. I read about this recently, wish I could find it again. Adaptive Mutations in Bacteria: High Rate and Small Effects isn't the study I read about, but seems somewhat similar, and it says in its abstract:

quote:
We found a rate on the order of 10−5 per genome per generation, which is 1000 times as high as previous estimates,...

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 310 by Faith, posted 08-15-2017 11:05 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
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