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Author Topic:   MACROevolution vs MICROevolution - what is it?
PaulK
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Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


(1)
Message 316 of 908 (817060)
08-15-2017 11:18 AM
Reply to: Message 312 by Faith
08-15-2017 11:11 AM


Re: Evolution has a built-in stopping point
quote:
The fact that evolutionary processes must inevitably run out of fuel proves that evolution from species to species cannot happen and has never happened and the whole ToE scenario is shown to be false
Lies aren't facts. Because mutations will continue to arrive even IF a species ran out of variety it would not be doomed to stop evolving. If your car runs out of fuel you can put a little more in and drive that bit further. Even more, if the tank is continually being topped up at the same rate as fuel is used you won't run out in the first place.
When your own analogy proves that your assertion is silly and wrong it really is time to give up.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 312 by Faith, posted 08-15-2017 11:11 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 318 by Faith, posted 08-15-2017 11:23 AM PaulK has replied

  
PaulK
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Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 321 of 908 (817066)
08-15-2017 11:35 AM
Reply to: Message 318 by Faith
08-15-2017 11:23 AM


Re: Evolution has a built-in stopping point
quote:
Again, you'd never ever get an identifiable species or variety or breed or race if beneficial mutations kept occurring in the sex cells at the rate necessary to stop the loss of genetic diversity that is NECESSARY to the formation of species or varieties or breeds or races.
You say that but without the numbers it's just an empty assertion contradicted by the evidence. We don't see your "inevitable" depletion of diversity despite all the evolution that - according to the evidence - has occurred.
Especially as we don't need the mutations to be beneficial to top up diversity. (If losing an allele is a loss of diversity then gaining it would be an increase in diversity - thus if losing a detrimental allele is a loss of diversity even a detrimental mutation is an increase)
You would think that in all these years of trying to argue this you would have come up with some rational reason to believe it. But all you have is an opinion that seems obviously false. That is not a winning argument.

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 Message 318 by Faith, posted 08-15-2017 11:23 AM Faith has not replied

  
PaulK
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Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 324 of 908 (817073)
08-15-2017 12:02 PM
Reply to: Message 323 by Faith
08-15-2017 11:56 AM


Re: Evolution has a built-in stopping point
It is a bad analogy because it accurately represents the situation? What an odd idea!

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 Message 323 by Faith, posted 08-15-2017 11:56 AM Faith has not replied

  
PaulK
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Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 336 of 908 (817096)
08-15-2017 12:53 PM
Reply to: Message 330 by Faith
08-15-2017 12:30 PM


Re: Evolution has a built-in stopping point
quote:
Not in any way that contributes to the formation of new species, races, varieties, breeds, etc., which requires some form of selection which requires losing genetic diversity. And if it did keep doing what you claim, you would never have any identifiable species, races, varieties or breeds.
Of course evolution requires both mutation and selection. The idea expressed here is that if they both operate one must run away, but that is obviously false. Not only is there a feedback effect that helps prevent it, observation shows us it is false.

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PaulK
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Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 345 of 908 (817126)
08-15-2017 1:48 PM
Reply to: Message 340 by Faith
08-15-2017 1:35 PM


Re: Evolution has a built-in stopping point
quote:
And when you do you must lose the genetic material for other phenotypes, because that's what selection does. The addition of mutations doesn't do anything in itself but change an allele here and there in the greater population. It has to be selected to form a new species, and selection requires the loss of the phenotype the mutation displaces.
There is a lot you are missing here which is why you are so badly wrong.
So let me repeat the basic point again. Mutation maintains diversity.
To go further, diversity is not some unchanging array of alleles - new alleles cone and go all the time. Yes, all of them will eventually either disappear or take over the population (the latter would include variants produced by further mutation). But that does not mean that there is any overall long-term decline in diversity.
It's like the fuel tank in a car. It's not the same petrol all the time - you have to keep putting more in - but if you do it frequently enough the tank will never get empty, even though all the original petrol is gone.

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PaulK
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Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 346 of 908 (817127)
08-15-2017 1:51 PM
Reply to: Message 344 by Faith
08-15-2017 1:45 PM


Re: Evolution has a built-in stopping point
quote:
Adding gas doesn't destroy what the engine is doing, but adding mutations would destroy existing species.
How would it do that ? This seems a bizarre claim. At what point would the species be "destroyed" and how ? Wolves aren't destroyed despite having at least a good deal of the genetic variety found in dogs. And it is hard to see how one or two or even a dozen minor variations spread through the population could change that.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 344 by Faith, posted 08-15-2017 1:45 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 349 by Faith, posted 08-15-2017 2:14 PM PaulK has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


(1)
Message 355 of 908 (817139)
08-15-2017 2:27 PM
Reply to: Message 349 by Faith
08-15-2017 2:14 PM


Re: Evolution has a built-in stopping point
quote:
If you have an established breed you don't want alien genes messing it up, that's the whole point of reproductive isolation.
You are making no sense. Why would the new alleles be "alien" ? How would they "mess up" the species ? Why is it "not wanted" ?
quote:
Nature doesn't "care" but the fact is that species in the wild do have established identities that can't persist if mutations kept changing their look.
I can't help but notice that you didn't answer my question. How would a dozen minor variations - in addition to those already there, spread through the population as I suggested - "keep changing their look" ?
quote:
So we know it doesn't happen
Well we know that the look doesn't drastically change but since that could easily be true if new variations were being added it's rather hard to attribute any significance to it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 349 by Faith, posted 08-15-2017 2:14 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 356 by Faith, posted 08-15-2017 2:35 PM PaulK has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 357 of 908 (817141)
08-15-2017 2:36 PM
Reply to: Message 356 by Faith
08-15-2017 2:35 PM


Re: Evolution has a built-in stopping point
quote:
Scattered mutations don't change a species, it takes selection to do that.
Exactly my point. I'm glad you see your error.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 356 by Faith, posted 08-15-2017 2:35 PM Faith has not replied

  
PaulK
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Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 382 of 908 (817224)
08-15-2017 11:48 PM
Reply to: Message 379 by Faith
08-15-2017 6:27 PM


Re: Evolution has a built-in stopping point
quote:
The understanding that mutations are predominantly neutral, many deleterious and a very very few beneficial is so commonly known I wouldn't expect to have to justify it
And you haven't been asked to justify that. Now how about actually answering Jon's question ?
Do you have any calculations or observations of the real world whether there are enough beneficial mutations (or neutral but beneficial when the environment changes, or detrimental but conferring some benefit before it's lost) to account for no inevitable loss of diversity?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 379 by Faith, posted 08-15-2017 6:27 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 383 by Faith, posted 08-15-2017 11:54 PM PaulK has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 384 of 908 (817228)
08-16-2017 12:05 AM
Reply to: Message 383 by Faith
08-15-2017 11:54 PM


Re: Evolution has a built-in stopping point
quote:
Even if ALL mutations were beneficial, selection inevitably brings about loss of genetic diversity
That is neither a calculation nor an observation. If you mean that there is an inevitable overall decline you need to back it up - and if you don't then you are just wasting time.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 383 by Faith, posted 08-15-2017 11:54 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 385 by Faith, posted 08-16-2017 12:33 AM PaulK has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


(1)
Message 386 of 908 (817232)
08-16-2017 12:42 AM
Reply to: Message 385 by Faith
08-16-2017 12:33 AM


Re: Evolution has a built-in stopping point
quote:
It's been backed up over and over and over again.
If you count claims that a car will inevitably run out of fuel even if you keep the tank topped up. Seriously, no. It has never been supported with any serious argument.
quote:
There's no way it can't happen, and besides it's even been agreed that it happens
You've been told how it could fail to happen. And it has not been agreed that it will inevitably happen.
quote:
Breeding examples are the clearest example.
It's funny how all your examples are entirely compatible with the opposing view.
quote:
Selection has to reduce genetic diversity, that's all there is to it. You can't get a population of new phenotypes if genetic material for other phenotypes remains in the population.
And mutation will replace that diversity. Unless you can show that it has too small an effect - which would require calculations or observations.
quote:
There is no need for calculations, the logic is clear.
The logic is clearly inadequate.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 385 by Faith, posted 08-16-2017 12:33 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 387 by Faith, posted 08-16-2017 12:55 AM PaulK has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 393 of 908 (817247)
08-16-2017 1:42 AM
Reply to: Message 387 by Faith
08-16-2017 12:55 AM


Re: Evolution has a built-in stopping point
quote:
The gas analogy doesn't work
Why not ? We have a supposedly limited resource but we have something that keeps replenishing it. That's exactly the case. And the mere fact of replenishment is enough to show that evolution doesn't have a built-in stopping point.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 387 by Faith, posted 08-16-2017 12:55 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 394 by Faith, posted 08-16-2017 1:46 AM PaulK has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 395 of 908 (817249)
08-16-2017 1:59 AM
Reply to: Message 394 by Faith
08-16-2017 1:46 AM


Re: Evolution has a built-in stopping point
quote:
That's been answered a million times already.
By asserting that the car will run out of fuel even if the tank is kept topped up.
Message 301. Message 306
Or asserting that the rarity of beneficial mutations somehow invalidates it (which would come down to a numbers argument - except the numbers aren't there - and mistakenly ignores neutral and mildly detrimental mutations)
Message 310
quote:
I know you aren't stupid so you must keep asking it to distract from the argument.
I'd have to be stupid to accept those answers. And as I pointed out the mere fact that diversity is replenished - even if it is only occasionally - kills your assertion that evolution must end. Looking at a vital point is hardly a distraction - am I supposed to think that you are too stupid to realise that ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 394 by Faith, posted 08-16-2017 1:46 AM Faith has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 398 of 908 (817253)
08-16-2017 5:01 AM
Reply to: Message 396 by DOCJ
08-16-2017 4:02 AM


Re: Evolution has a built-in stopping point
I'll say two things.
First the Blue Letter Bible apparently can't tell the difference between modern creationists and ancient Hebrews.
Second, of course evolution can't produce a species with no ancestors, which is what would be required to meet that definition of "kind".
So, pretty pointless.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 396 by DOCJ, posted 08-16-2017 4:02 AM DOCJ has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 418 by DOCJ, posted 08-16-2017 12:24 PM PaulK has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 400 of 908 (817258)
08-16-2017 8:10 AM
Reply to: Message 399 by Percy
08-16-2017 7:57 AM


Re: Evolution has a built-in stopping point
quote:
Balance, meaning that the amount of genetic information remains unchanged, is probably the least likely possibility.
Meaning that the amount of variation in the population remains roughly constant - in the sense of fluctuating about a mean rather than never changing.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 399 by Percy, posted 08-16-2017 7:57 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
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