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Member (Idle past 1404 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
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Author | Topic: MACROevolution vs MICROevolution - what is it? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
PaulK Member Posts: 17822 Joined: Member Rating: 2.3
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quote: Lies aren't facts. Because mutations will continue to arrive even IF a species ran out of variety it would not be doomed to stop evolving. If your car runs out of fuel you can put a little more in and drive that bit further. Even more, if the tank is continually being topped up at the same rate as fuel is used you won't run out in the first place. When your own analogy proves that your assertion is silly and wrong it really is time to give up.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17822 Joined: Member Rating: 2.3 |
quote: You say that but without the numbers it's just an empty assertion contradicted by the evidence. We don't see your "inevitable" depletion of diversity despite all the evolution that - according to the evidence - has occurred. Especially as we don't need the mutations to be beneficial to top up diversity. (If losing an allele is a loss of diversity then gaining it would be an increase in diversity - thus if losing a detrimental allele is a loss of diversity even a detrimental mutation is an increase) You would think that in all these years of trying to argue this you would have come up with some rational reason to believe it. But all you have is an opinion that seems obviously false. That is not a winning argument.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17822 Joined: Member Rating: 2.3 |
It is a bad analogy because it accurately represents the situation? What an odd idea!
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PaulK Member Posts: 17822 Joined: Member Rating: 2.3 |
quote: Of course evolution requires both mutation and selection. The idea expressed here is that if they both operate one must run away, but that is obviously false. Not only is there a feedback effect that helps prevent it, observation shows us it is false.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17822 Joined: Member Rating: 2.3 |
quote: There is a lot you are missing here which is why you are so badly wrong. So let me repeat the basic point again. Mutation maintains diversity. To go further, diversity is not some unchanging array of alleles - new alleles cone and go all the time. Yes, all of them will eventually either disappear or take over the population (the latter would include variants produced by further mutation). But that does not mean that there is any overall long-term decline in diversity. It's like the fuel tank in a car. It's not the same petrol all the time - you have to keep putting more in - but if you do it frequently enough the tank will never get empty, even though all the original petrol is gone.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17822 Joined: Member Rating: 2.3 |
quote: How would it do that ? This seems a bizarre claim. At what point would the species be "destroyed" and how ? Wolves aren't destroyed despite having at least a good deal of the genetic variety found in dogs. And it is hard to see how one or two or even a dozen minor variations spread through the population could change that.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17822 Joined: Member Rating: 2.3
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quote: You are making no sense. Why would the new alleles be "alien" ? How would they "mess up" the species ? Why is it "not wanted" ?
quote: I can't help but notice that you didn't answer my question. How would a dozen minor variations - in addition to those already there, spread through the population as I suggested - "keep changing their look" ?
quote: Well we know that the look doesn't drastically change but since that could easily be true if new variations were being added it's rather hard to attribute any significance to it.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17822 Joined: Member Rating: 2.3 |
quote: Exactly my point. I'm glad you see your error.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17822 Joined: Member Rating: 2.3 |
quote: And you haven't been asked to justify that. Now how about actually answering Jon's question ?
Do you have any calculations or observations of the real world whether there are enough beneficial mutations (or neutral but beneficial when the environment changes, or detrimental but conferring some benefit before it's lost) to account for no inevitable loss of diversity?
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PaulK Member Posts: 17822 Joined: Member Rating: 2.3 |
quote: That is neither a calculation nor an observation. If you mean that there is an inevitable overall decline you need to back it up - and if you don't then you are just wasting time.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17822 Joined: Member Rating: 2.3
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quote: If you count claims that a car will inevitably run out of fuel even if you keep the tank topped up. Seriously, no. It has never been supported with any serious argument.
quote: You've been told how it could fail to happen. And it has not been agreed that it will inevitably happen.
quote: It's funny how all your examples are entirely compatible with the opposing view.
quote: And mutation will replace that diversity. Unless you can show that it has too small an effect - which would require calculations or observations.
quote: The logic is clearly inadequate.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17822 Joined: Member Rating: 2.3 |
quote: Why not ? We have a supposedly limited resource but we have something that keeps replenishing it. That's exactly the case. And the mere fact of replenishment is enough to show that evolution doesn't have a built-in stopping point.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17822 Joined: Member Rating: 2.3 |
quote: By asserting that the car will run out of fuel even if the tank is kept topped up.
Message 301. Message 306 Or asserting that the rarity of beneficial mutations somehow invalidates it (which would come down to a numbers argument - except the numbers aren't there - and mistakenly ignores neutral and mildly detrimental mutations)
Message 310 quote: I'd have to be stupid to accept those answers. And as I pointed out the mere fact that diversity is replenished - even if it is only occasionally - kills your assertion that evolution must end. Looking at a vital point is hardly a distraction - am I supposed to think that you are too stupid to realise that ?
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PaulK Member Posts: 17822 Joined: Member Rating: 2.3 |
I'll say two things.
First the Blue Letter Bible apparently can't tell the difference between modern creationists and ancient Hebrews. Second, of course evolution can't produce a species with no ancestors, which is what would be required to meet that definition of "kind". So, pretty pointless.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17822 Joined: Member Rating: 2.3 |
quote: Meaning that the amount of variation in the population remains roughly constant - in the sense of fluctuating about a mean rather than never changing.
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