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Author Topic:   MACROevolution vs MICROevolution - what is it?
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 526 of 908 (817579)
08-18-2017 11:47 AM
Reply to: Message 495 by DOCJ
08-17-2017 8:08 PM


Re: Evolution has a built-in stopping point
DOCJ writes:
You need to point out where "religon" is incorrect in order for your point to be valuable.
We have a lot of topics on that. Feel free to join any of them.
DOCJ writes:
And I'm sure you have a list of issues and in all likelyhood you are anchoring to someone else.
All of my issues with the Bible are anchored in the Bible. You don't even have to go any further than Genesis 1 to find errors.
DOCJ writes:
In anycase, please reference 1 or 2 issues if you want to be productive in this conversation.
Issues with the Bible are not productive in this topic. Kindly go to an appropriate topic and I'll be glad to discuss them. My guess is that you'll drop out before I do.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 495 by DOCJ, posted 08-17-2017 8:08 PM DOCJ has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 533 by DOCJ, posted 08-18-2017 6:59 PM ringo has replied

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 4344
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 5.9


Message 527 of 908 (817610)
08-18-2017 3:40 PM
Reply to: Message 498 by DOCJ
08-17-2017 9:12 PM


Re: Evolution has a built-in stopping point
DOCJ writes:
Big bang, big crunch, multiverse, string theory, electrical universe theory, evolution, darwinian evolution, theory of evolution, general relativity, quantum theory, abiogenesis, etc..
Thanks for being so precise and specific. So basically you don't have a clue about science and how it works.
DOCJ writes:
Umm... ok... 🙄 It's unhealthy to change your mind frequently = i.e. not unhealthy persay/can be unhealthy. You didn't catch that point? Sorry, I will do my best to be clear.
Sorry, I don't see what could possibly be unhealthy about scientists changing their minds in light of new evidence.
DOCJ writes:
If you study you learn. And what you learn is equal to a belief. The knowledge gained from studying is ultimately a belief.
I would say it depends on what you are studying.
If you are using science to conduct your study then your conclusions gained from the study would be based on evidence.
Beliefs are not based on verifiable evidence, so beliefs are NOT equal to scientific knowledge.
DOCJ writes:
Nothing is absolute.
This is true and it is one of the basic tenets of science.
DOCJ writes:
And yes, Science, overtime, if the theory is comprehensive may be the ultimate truth of nature to human beings. Hope you understood that last part.
One of the goals of science is to refine its theories over time to be closer and closer to accurate descriptions of reality. Achieving the "ultimate truth about nature to human beings" is not really a part of the scientific method, primarily because it is recognized that new evidence or observations may refine or change our understanding.
Yep, I understood that last part, I just disagree that that is the way science works and so is an unrealistic expectation.
DOCJ writes:
Hawking accepts evolution.
Ah, if you mean Stephen Hawking, then yes I would say he understands how science works and accepts the conclusions of science, based on the mountains of evidence we have discovered over the last several hundred years.

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python
One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie
If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy
The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq

This message is a reply to:
 Message 498 by DOCJ, posted 08-17-2017 9:12 PM DOCJ has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 529 by DOCJ, posted 08-18-2017 6:07 PM Tanypteryx has replied
 Message 531 by DOCJ, posted 08-18-2017 6:47 PM Tanypteryx has not replied

  
DOCJ
Inactive Member


Message 528 of 908 (817625)
08-18-2017 5:47 PM
Reply to: Message 507 by PaulK
08-18-2017 12:22 AM


Re: Evolution has a built-in stopping point
How exactly do you explain time always existing from your pov? Any reason to believe it? How exactly do you explain the wmap? The bb all these scientists support, or are you an electrical universe supporter?
Edited by DOCJ, : Err

This message is a reply to:
 Message 507 by PaulK, posted 08-18-2017 12:22 AM PaulK has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 538 by Percy, posted 08-19-2017 8:08 AM DOCJ has replied

  
DOCJ
Inactive Member


Message 529 of 908 (817627)
08-18-2017 6:07 PM
Reply to: Message 527 by Tanypteryx
08-18-2017 3:40 PM


Re: Evolution has a built-in stopping point
Wow good job buddy. You are learning. You still have not figured it out... 🤤

This message is a reply to:
 Message 527 by Tanypteryx, posted 08-18-2017 3:40 PM Tanypteryx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 530 by Tanypteryx, posted 08-18-2017 6:30 PM DOCJ has replied

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 4344
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 5.9


Message 530 of 908 (817629)
08-18-2017 6:30 PM
Reply to: Message 529 by DOCJ
08-18-2017 6:07 PM


Re: Evolution has a built-in stopping point
Wow good job buddy. You are learning. You still have not figured it out..
Oh, I figured it out alright, you're just a troll.

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python
One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie
If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy
The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq

This message is a reply to:
 Message 529 by DOCJ, posted 08-18-2017 6:07 PM DOCJ has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 532 by DOCJ, posted 08-18-2017 6:53 PM Tanypteryx has not replied

  
DOCJ
Inactive Member


Message 531 of 908 (817631)
08-18-2017 6:47 PM
Reply to: Message 527 by Tanypteryx
08-18-2017 3:40 PM


Re: Evolution has a built-in stopping point
I'm going to help you out a tiny bit. Evidence does not speak evolution. Evidence is interpreted, people use their imagination, draw an idea, research the idea, test the idea and draw a conclusion. And other people test it and decide, etc. Its pretty simple. And it is still unhealthy to change your mind frequently just because a new rock is found. And people think it's a new transitional fossil... And even if it is a fossil that looks like something else, doesn't mean it is actually transitional... It's something that lived and died. That's it. Yes I can intrepret it too.. I'm not anchoring.. Look, I didn't insult you.. Wow.. You really need to learn how to discuss issues.. learn some etiquette.. 😙😁😛
Edited by DOCJ, : Err
Edited by DOCJ, : Err

This message is a reply to:
 Message 527 by Tanypteryx, posted 08-18-2017 3:40 PM Tanypteryx has not replied

  
DOCJ
Inactive Member


Message 532 of 908 (817633)
08-18-2017 6:53 PM
Reply to: Message 530 by Tanypteryx
08-18-2017 6:30 PM


Re: Evolutihon has a built-in stopping point
Good job buddy.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 530 by Tanypteryx, posted 08-18-2017 6:30 PM Tanypteryx has not replied

  
DOCJ
Inactive Member


Message 533 of 908 (817634)
08-18-2017 6:59 PM
Reply to: Message 526 by ringo
08-18-2017 11:47 AM


Re: Evolution has a built-in stopping point
Feel free to start a discussion. Promise you I aint going anywhere. And there are absolutely no issues in Genesis, it's just you anchoring.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 526 by ringo, posted 08-18-2017 11:47 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 575 by ringo, posted 08-19-2017 12:21 PM DOCJ has replied

  
DOCJ
Inactive Member


Message 534 of 908 (817635)
08-18-2017 7:01 PM
Reply to: Message 503 by Faith
08-17-2017 11:26 PM


Re: the usual silly wrong linear analogy
The allels contain the genes. And chromosomes contain up to 25,000 genes. Plenty of room.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 503 by Faith, posted 08-17-2017 11:26 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 539 by Faith, posted 08-19-2017 8:19 AM DOCJ has replied

  
DOCJ
Inactive Member


Message 535 of 908 (817637)
08-18-2017 7:06 PM
Reply to: Message 504 by Coyote
08-17-2017 11:42 PM


Re: Evolution has a built-in stopping point
I'm not going anywhere, feel free to get this discussion rolling.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 504 by Coyote, posted 08-17-2017 11:42 PM Coyote has not replied

  
DOCJ
Inactive Member


Message 536 of 908 (817638)
08-18-2017 7:07 PM
Reply to: Message 505 by New Cat's Eye
08-17-2017 11:55 PM


Re: Evolution has a built-in stopping point
Referencing false teachers. It is not just needing a job.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 505 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-17-2017 11:55 PM New Cat's Eye has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 537 of 908 (817656)
08-19-2017 8:02 AM
Reply to: Message 520 by Faith
08-18-2017 9:12 AM


Re: Breeding possibilities
Faith writes:
...and mutations don't occur at any rate that would help the situation.
Sure they do, just not usually on an observable human timescale. I did come across information that some Texas pumas were introduced into the Florida Panther population to increase diversity, and that was helpful.
The seals were able to build up their population which is some protection of course, but cats being more loners don't have that advantage.
Elephant seals have one pup per year, while the Florida panther has 2-3 kittens every two years.
There is no reason whatever that a new species would not be the result of many generations of inbreeding in such a population, even to the point of loss of ability to breed with other populations of the same species.
Without mutation, even many generations of inbreeding would create no new genes or alleles. The inbred subpopulation would still possess only genes and alleles already found in the main population. They would be the same species.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 520 by Faith, posted 08-18-2017 9:12 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 540 by Faith, posted 08-19-2017 8:35 AM Percy has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 538 of 908 (817657)
08-19-2017 8:08 AM
Reply to: Message 528 by DOCJ
08-18-2017 5:47 PM


Re: Evolution has a built-in stopping point
DOCJ writes:
How exactly do you explain time always existing from your pov? Any reason to believe it? How exactly do you explain the wmap? The bb all these scientists support, or are you an electrical universe supporter?
Not a single one of these questions belongs in this topic.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 528 by DOCJ, posted 08-18-2017 5:47 PM DOCJ has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 543 by DOCJ, posted 08-19-2017 10:04 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 539 of 908 (817658)
08-19-2017 8:19 AM
Reply to: Message 534 by DOCJ
08-18-2017 7:01 PM


Re: the usual silly wrong linear analogy
The allels contain the genes
The alleles are versions of the gene, or in a sense ARE the gene, they don't "contain" it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 534 by DOCJ, posted 08-18-2017 7:01 PM DOCJ has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 544 by DOCJ, posted 08-19-2017 10:11 AM Faith has replied
 Message 547 by DOCJ, posted 08-19-2017 10:29 AM Faith has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 540 of 908 (817662)
08-19-2017 8:35 AM
Reply to: Message 537 by Percy
08-19-2017 8:02 AM


Re: Breeding possibilities
If introducing the Texas puma into the Florida panther population "helped," that means the panther was not completely genetically depleted and was able to breed with the puma, so it was not a situation like the elephant seal or the cheetah as was implied. If it were possible to help the cheetah by introducing another cat, that would have been done by now so apparently it is not possible.
Without mutation, even many generations of inbreeding would create no new genes or alleles. The inbred subpopulation would still possess only genes and alleles already found in the main population. They would be the same species.
Yes i8t would possess only the same genes and alleles, but depending on how different the gene frequencies are it could possess strikingly different phenotypic characteristics because of different combinations of those genes/alleles, a different frequency of heterozygosity or homozygosity for different traits and so on. It is the changed gene frequencies that bring about the new characteristics of a new population, and that alone is capable of creating all the different species in a ring species without a single mutation.;
As for mutations, just how often do you get a brand new trait from a mutation anyway? Hardly ever is my guess. In the former discussion about these things a new rabbit fur color was given as an example. (Let's leave out the immune system for now since it seems to be different from other genes in many ways). My jaundiced view of mutations suspects that it was really the recovery of a lost color, since alleles are just sequences of chemical codes, but even granting that it's a brand new color, fur color is a pretty innocuous variation, not much to hang macroevolution on.
Maybe we need to try to imagine our way through what mutations really would do if they occurred at various points in the formation of a daughter population. I guess the idea is that the new fur color if selected would make a new species of rabbit. Of course as that happens all the other colors are lost as I keep saying, reducing genetic diversity again in order to bring out this new population with this new color. So is it imagined by all those who keep throwing mutations at me that a series of changes at the level of rabbit fur, even through a dozen new "species" with different colors of rabbit fur, EACH LOSING THE ALLELES FOR ALL THE OTHER COLORS, is a viable model of evolution?
abe: To be fair I have to include in this picture that when one trait is selected, again in this case if not by drift within the population then by migration of some number of individuals to start another separate daughter population, you can't avoid simultaneously selecting others, getting yet a new set of traits through a new set of gene frequencies for the whole population and not just the fur color. So as in ring species you now have a new species, but it's necessarily lost more alleles in the formation of its new set of phenotypes. Those new phenotypes will form a new trait picture for the new population after some generations of inbreeding to homogenize it as it were. What do you want to do at this point? Introduce a whole bunch of new mutations? Do you picture their spreading for a while in the population? What exactly is the picture here? Do you want to have another migration of some small number to form a new daughter population that contains some of these mutations? Are you imagining enough new variability from these mutations to offset the necessary loss?
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 537 by Percy, posted 08-19-2017 8:02 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 541 by Percy, posted 08-19-2017 9:37 AM Faith has replied

  
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