Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
4 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,817 Year: 3,074/9,624 Month: 919/1,588 Week: 102/223 Day: 13/17 Hour: 0/1


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   MACROevolution vs MICROevolution - what is it?
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 541 of 908 (817668)
08-19-2017 9:37 AM
Reply to: Message 540 by Faith
08-19-2017 8:35 AM


Re: Breeding possibilities
Faith writes:
If introducing the Texas puma into the Florida panther population "helped," that means the panther was not completely genetically depleted and was able to breed with the puma,...
Where on Earth did you get the idea that genetic depletion means inability to breed with other members of the same species? The Florida panther is a cougar, and cougars can breed with each other. The various populations of cheetah spread around the world can breed with each other. Because, like, they're the same species and all.
Yes it would possess only the same genes and alleles, but depending on how different the gene frequencies are it could possess strikingly different phenotypic characteristics because of different combinations of those genes/alleles, a different frequency of heterozygosity or homozygosity for different traits and so on. It is the changed gene frequencies that bring about the new characteristics of a new population, and that alone is capable of creating all the different species in a ring species without a single mutation.
You can't get a new species just by manipulating gene frequencies - that just results in new breeds. It's why breeders can't create new species. Only over long time periods are enough mutations produced and distributed to result in the genetic incompatibility that truly defines a new species.
As for mutations, just how often do you get a brand new trait from a mutation anyway?...not much to hang macroevolution on.
A single mutation is microevolution and would be unlikely in the extreme to produce the significant change necessary for speciation. Macroevolution is the accumulation over time of many mutations sufficient to produce new species.
I guess the idea is that the new fur color if selected would make a new species of rabbit.
No one is suggesting or has ever suggested that fur color by itself defines a new species.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 540 by Faith, posted 08-19-2017 8:35 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 542 by Faith, posted 08-19-2017 9:53 AM Percy has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 542 of 908 (817671)
08-19-2017 9:53 AM
Reply to: Message 541 by Percy
08-19-2017 9:37 AM


Re: Breeding possibilities
I did not say there would be any problem breeding between members of the same species, I thought the puma and panther were different species that could still interbreed. If not, my mistake.
You can't get a new species just by manipulating gene frequencies - that just results in new breeds.
I totally absolutely disagree. All it takes in some species to come to a point where interbreeding is impossible is the loss of genetic diversity through selection over a number of daughter populations.
ABE: This would be the same genetic situation as the cheetah's and the cheetah cannot interbreed with other cats.
It's why breeders can't create new species. Only over long time periods are enough mutations produced and distributed to result in the genetic incompatibility that truly defines a new species.
Nonsense. For one thing mutations are only variations on existing alleles and if new gene frequencies of those existing alleles aren't enough to lead to genetic incompatibility, there's no reason to think a functioning allele brought about by mutation would behave differently.
A single mutation is microevolution and would be unlikely in the extreme to produce the significant change necessary for speciation.
A mutation is NOT microevolution, it's a single change in a single allele, utterly lost in a population unless selected. EVOLUTION REQUIRES SELECTION, requires the proliferation of that mutation at the very least, and OF COURSE speciation isn't going to happen from one mutation. DUH and a half. Speciation isn't what I'm focused on but it could happen from extreme reduction of genetic diversity in a whole population with new gene frequencies of alleles whether mutated alleles or not.
Macroevolution is the accumulation over time of many mutations sufficient to produce new species.
Oh blithering nonsense. This does not happen.
Even if you got all new phenotypes you'd still have the problem of loss of GENETIC diversity due to SELECTION, which is necessary to the formation of new species. Mutations alone cannot produce new species. Selection is necessary to evolution whether the genetic material is built in or produced by mutations, and when you have selection you have the replacement of some alleles by the new set of high frequency alleles, always always always the necessary reduction in genetic diversity brought about by selection/evolution.
I was asking for a picture of what people have in mind when they keep saying mutations can overcome the necessary loss of genetic diversity brought about by selection.
'
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 541 by Percy, posted 08-19-2017 9:37 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 551 by Coyote, posted 08-19-2017 11:04 AM Faith has replied
 Message 562 by herebedragons, posted 08-19-2017 11:43 AM Faith has replied
 Message 600 by Percy, posted 08-20-2017 8:19 AM Faith has not replied

  
DOCJ
Inactive Member


Message 543 of 908 (817672)
08-19-2017 10:04 AM
Reply to: Message 538 by Percy
08-19-2017 8:08 AM


Re: Evolution has a built-in stopping point
Right... Figured 1 of you would step into it... Testing is always fun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 538 by Percy, posted 08-19-2017 8:08 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
DOCJ
Inactive Member


Message 544 of 908 (817673)
08-19-2017 10:11 AM
Reply to: Message 539 by Faith
08-19-2017 8:19 AM


Re: the usual silly wrong linear analogy
The alleles contain the genes. Different sequences of alleles come together and wallah you have a gene. And obviously an allele is not a gene as 1 by itself is not a gene. The video does a great job of explaining not only that point but the point of drift.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZsgYxJN0xx8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 539 by Faith, posted 08-19-2017 8:19 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 545 by Faith, posted 08-19-2017 10:13 AM DOCJ has replied
 Message 567 by herebedragons, posted 08-19-2017 11:59 AM DOCJ has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 545 of 908 (817674)
08-19-2017 10:13 AM
Reply to: Message 544 by DOCJ
08-19-2017 10:11 AM


Re: the usual silly wrong linear analogy
You don't know what you are talking about. An allele is a FORM of a gene. Sheesh.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 544 by DOCJ, posted 08-19-2017 10:11 AM DOCJ has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 546 by DOCJ, posted 08-19-2017 10:19 AM Faith has replied

  
DOCJ
Inactive Member


Message 546 of 908 (817675)
08-19-2017 10:19 AM
Reply to: Message 545 by Faith
08-19-2017 10:13 AM


Re: the usual silly wrong linear analogy
Incorrect. A combination of alleles are a gene. Hence alleles are contained in the gene. The gene released that stimulates the cells to do what they do in order for a trait to be seen is because multiple alleles come together...
Just like multiple chromosomes come together to make up the DNA. The DNA contains the chromosomes.
Edited by DOCJ, : err
Edited by DOCJ, : err
Edited by DOCJ, : err
Edited by DOCJ, : err

This message is a reply to:
 Message 545 by Faith, posted 08-19-2017 10:13 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 548 by Faith, posted 08-19-2017 10:32 AM DOCJ has replied

  
DOCJ
Inactive Member


Message 547 of 908 (817676)
08-19-2017 10:29 AM
Reply to: Message 539 by Faith
08-19-2017 8:19 AM


Re: the usual silly wrong linear analogy
I see what is happening in our discussion. It's a language issue. I will restate my point differently.
The alleles make up the gene. They are contained within the gene. However, they are not THE gene. Just like chromosomes are not THE DNA.
Edited by DOCJ, : err

This message is a reply to:
 Message 539 by Faith, posted 08-19-2017 8:19 AM Faith has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


(1)
Message 548 of 908 (817677)
08-19-2017 10:32 AM
Reply to: Message 546 by DOCJ
08-19-2017 10:19 AM


Re: the usual silly wrong linear analogy
The gene is only a location, it's the alleles that provide the genetic codes.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 546 by DOCJ, posted 08-19-2017 10:19 AM DOCJ has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 549 by DOCJ, posted 08-19-2017 10:34 AM Faith has not replied

  
DOCJ
Inactive Member


Message 549 of 908 (817678)
08-19-2017 10:34 AM
Reply to: Message 548 by Faith
08-19-2017 10:32 AM


Re: the usual silly wrong linear analogy
I don't believe I have any issues with that point.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 548 by Faith, posted 08-19-2017 10:32 AM Faith has not replied

  
DOCJ
Inactive Member


Message 550 of 908 (817682)
08-19-2017 10:43 AM
Reply to: Message 503 by Faith
08-17-2017 11:26 PM


Re: the usual silly wrong linear analogy
You never responded to 234.
The silenced gene/s are merely being drifted/recessed as in the video. The information is not lost. Unless you can provide some data showing your point, there is no reason to believe a gene is lost.. Drift can occur for thousands of years. Then people are like, HEY where did you get that blond hair, or those blue eyes. Nobody has those in our family (that they know). Hence no lost information. At least that is what they taught and I confirmed in college.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZsgYxJN0xx8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 503 by Faith, posted 08-17-2017 11:26 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 552 by Faith, posted 08-19-2017 11:05 AM DOCJ has replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 551 of 908 (817687)
08-19-2017 11:04 AM
Reply to: Message 542 by Faith
08-19-2017 9:53 AM


Re: Breeding possibilities
I thought the puma and panther were different species that could still interbreed. If not, my mistake.
Does it not sometimes bother you that you make so many basic mistakes in your pronouncements?
Does it ever occur to you, perhaps, that a lot more of your opinions and beliefs may be wrong?

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.
Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other points of view--William F. Buckley Jr.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 542 by Faith, posted 08-19-2017 9:53 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 553 by Faith, posted 08-19-2017 11:08 AM Coyote has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 552 of 908 (817688)
08-19-2017 11:05 AM
Reply to: Message 550 by DOCJ
08-19-2017 10:43 AM


Re: the usual silly wrong linear analogy
I did answer you. I said I was talking about alleles being lost, not genes.
And PaulK said the same about alleles in Message 298:
...Certainly alleles are removed from the population - fixation of an allele is, by definition, the loss of all others ....
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 550 by DOCJ, posted 08-19-2017 10:43 AM DOCJ has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 555 by DOCJ, posted 08-19-2017 11:13 AM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 553 of 908 (817689)
08-19-2017 11:08 AM
Reply to: Message 551 by Coyote
08-19-2017 11:04 AM


Re: Breeding possibilities
I don't care about the difference between a puma and a panther. It's a side issue.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 551 by Coyote, posted 08-19-2017 11:04 AM Coyote has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 554 by Coyote, posted 08-19-2017 11:12 AM Faith has replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(1)
Message 554 of 908 (817692)
08-19-2017 11:12 AM
Reply to: Message 553 by Faith
08-19-2017 11:08 AM


Re: Breeding possibilities
I don't care about the difference between a puma and a panther. It's a side issue.
The issue on which I commented was how many basic fundamental errors you make in your posts.
Making a lot of obvious mistakes casts doubt on everything else one says--at least in the sciences.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.
Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other points of view--William F. Buckley Jr.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 553 by Faith, posted 08-19-2017 11:08 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 556 by Faith, posted 08-19-2017 11:14 AM Coyote has seen this message but not replied
 Message 557 by DOCJ, posted 08-19-2017 11:15 AM Coyote has not replied

  
DOCJ
Inactive Member


Message 555 of 908 (817693)
08-19-2017 11:13 AM
Reply to: Message 552 by Faith
08-19-2017 11:05 AM


Re: the usual silly wrong linear analogy
Show it using a reliable source of info, that genes are lost. There are 4 types of alleles and They exist inside no matter the gene. Show that the sequence/gene location is lost VS it just being moved.😁

This message is a reply to:
 Message 552 by Faith, posted 08-19-2017 11:05 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 558 by Faith, posted 08-19-2017 11:16 AM DOCJ has replied
 Message 564 by herebedragons, posted 08-19-2017 11:50 AM DOCJ has replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024