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Author Topic:   MACROevolution vs MICROevolution - what is it?
DOCJ
Inactive Member


Message 571 of 908 (817715)
08-19-2017 12:11 PM
Reply to: Message 564 by herebedragons
08-19-2017 11:50 AM


Re: You need to do a bit of research...
I was incorrect about how many.. I had something else in mind regarding alleles.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 564 by herebedragons, posted 08-19-2017 11:50 AM herebedragons has not replied

  
herebedragons
Member (Idle past 857 days)
Posts: 1517
From: Michigan
Joined: 11-22-2009


Message 572 of 908 (817720)
08-19-2017 12:17 PM
Reply to: Message 565 by DOCJ
08-19-2017 11:51 AM


Re: RILs refute your idea of speciation
No idea what your point is...
Yes plants are much different than animals...
You can create RILs with animals too, but instead of using self crosses, you use sibling crosses.
http://www.informatics.jax.org/silver/chapters/9-2.shtml
quote:
One begins with an outcross between two well-established highly inbred strains of mice, such as B6 and DBA in the example shown. These are considered the progenitor strains. The F1 progeny from this cross are all identical, and thus in genetic terms, they are all interchangeable. F1 hybrid animals are bred to each other to produce a large set of F2 animals. At this generation, siblings and cousins are no longer identical because of the segregation of B6 and DBA alleles from the heterozygous F1 parents.
HBD

Whoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for... I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca
"Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem.
Ignorance is a most formidable opponent rivaled only by arrogance; but when the two join forces, one is all but invincible.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 565 by DOCJ, posted 08-19-2017 11:51 AM DOCJ has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 580 by DOCJ, posted 08-19-2017 1:20 PM herebedragons has replied

  
DOCJ
Inactive Member


Message 573 of 908 (817721)
08-19-2017 12:17 PM
Reply to: Message 563 by herebedragons
08-19-2017 11:47 AM


Re: the usual silly wrong linear analogy
Still looking for a source showing loss of genes.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 563 by herebedragons, posted 08-19-2017 11:47 AM herebedragons has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 576 by herebedragons, posted 08-19-2017 12:23 PM DOCJ has replied

  
herebedragons
Member (Idle past 857 days)
Posts: 1517
From: Michigan
Joined: 11-22-2009


Message 574 of 908 (817723)
08-19-2017 12:19 PM
Reply to: Message 570 by DOCJ
08-19-2017 12:09 PM


Re: the usual silly wrong linear analogy
Nope.
Recessive traits can be lost due to drift, but so can dominate traits.

Whoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for... I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca
"Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem.
Ignorance is a most formidable opponent rivaled only by arrogance; but when the two join forces, one is all but invincible.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 570 by DOCJ, posted 08-19-2017 12:09 PM DOCJ has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 582 by DOCJ, posted 08-19-2017 1:25 PM herebedragons has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 575 of 908 (817724)
08-19-2017 12:21 PM
Reply to: Message 533 by DOCJ
08-18-2017 6:59 PM


Re: Evolution has a built-in stopping point
As I said, there's no need to start a new discussion. There are plenty of existing ones that you can join.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 533 by DOCJ, posted 08-18-2017 6:59 PM DOCJ has replied

Replies to this message:
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herebedragons
Member (Idle past 857 days)
Posts: 1517
From: Michigan
Joined: 11-22-2009


(1)
Message 576 of 908 (817725)
08-19-2017 12:23 PM
Reply to: Message 573 by DOCJ
08-19-2017 12:17 PM


Re: the usual silly wrong linear analogy
Uhmmm...
Are you expecting me to present a source showing "loss of genes"? OR are you trying to find one??
I have no idea what point you are trying to make... on just about anything you have said in this thread.

Whoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for... I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca
"Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem.
Ignorance is a most formidable opponent rivaled only by arrogance; but when the two join forces, one is all but invincible.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 573 by DOCJ, posted 08-19-2017 12:17 PM DOCJ has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 581 by DOCJ, posted 08-19-2017 1:24 PM herebedragons has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 577 of 908 (817728)
08-19-2017 12:26 PM
Reply to: Message 569 by herebedragons
08-19-2017 12:08 PM


Re: RILs refute your idea of speciation
I'm not even sure you can do what I'm talking about with plants. With animals you can [abe: RANDOMLY /abe] select out a number of individuals from a whole population of animals, and that selection as a population unto itself will have a new set of gene frequencies as compared with the parent population.
Is there anything in your scenario comparable to this random selection?
This is the first step. You mention drift but after isolation and inbreeding which is a different order.
So this number of individuals is separated from the parent population and reproductively isolated.
You mention ONE seed as selected. I'm talking about populations. How is one seed comparable to what I'm talking about?
So my isolated limited number of individuals is now allowed to inbreed over whatever number of generations it takes to produce a new species, or variety, or population with all the same or roughly the same set of traits.
The original selection itself reduces the genetic diversity but as the higher frequency alleles replace the lower frequency alleles over some number of genrations the loss of genetic diversity can increase as some of the low frequency alleles drop out of the population altogether.
Do you still think your example is similar enough to what I'm talking about to ask me to think about it further?
ABE: Note I added "randomly" in the first sentence in case it wasn't clear without it.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 569 by herebedragons, posted 08-19-2017 12:08 PM herebedragons has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 579 by herebedragons, posted 08-19-2017 12:49 PM Faith has replied

  
herebedragons
Member (Idle past 857 days)
Posts: 1517
From: Michigan
Joined: 11-22-2009


Message 578 of 908 (817731)
08-19-2017 12:47 PM
Reply to: Message 566 by Faith
08-19-2017 11:52 AM


Re: RILs refute your idea of speciation
I will point out a couple more things about this
Isolation and inbreeding occur after selection
Selection would be after the initial cross, the F1 progeny. Breeders don't usually select for particular traits to begin the F2 generation because they actually want the distribution to be random. Each of the F2 individuals used to create the lines are isolated (meaning they no longer mix genetically with other lines) at this step - after selecting them from the F1 progeny.
in order to homogenize the new set of gene frequencies brought about by the selection
AT the end of 10 generations of inbreeding, each population or line is almost completely homogeneous. More so than what would ever happen in nature in 100 generations.
meaning the reduced number of individuals separated out to be the founders of a daughter population.
Each founding population has 1 individual (or 2 in the case of sibling crosses). There is no more severe of a bottleneck / founder effect possible than n=1 (or n=2 for sibling crosses).
Your scenario looks like something entirely different,
It is an extreme (the most extreme) example of the scenario which you are presenting.
I don't see any selection.
Each line will have its own set of unique characters, whether those characters are directionally selected or not, they WILL be differentiated to the maximum degree. Whatever character is selected (whether by random or by choice), that line will differentiate for that character and will become homogeneous for that character.
It is the scenario you are presenting, just an extreme version of it. If those independent lines are going to speciate, there is a missing factor.
HBD

Whoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for... I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca
"Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem.
Ignorance is a most formidable opponent rivaled only by arrogance; but when the two join forces, one is all but invincible.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 566 by Faith, posted 08-19-2017 11:52 AM Faith has not replied

  
herebedragons
Member (Idle past 857 days)
Posts: 1517
From: Michigan
Joined: 11-22-2009


Message 579 of 908 (817733)
08-19-2017 12:49 PM
Reply to: Message 577 by Faith
08-19-2017 12:26 PM


Re: RILs refute your idea of speciation
Yes. See Message 578 for more info.

Whoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for... I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca
"Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem.
Ignorance is a most formidable opponent rivaled only by arrogance; but when the two join forces, one is all but invincible.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 577 by Faith, posted 08-19-2017 12:26 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 587 by Faith, posted 08-19-2017 2:11 PM herebedragons has replied

  
DOCJ
Inactive Member


Message 580 of 908 (817737)
08-19-2017 1:20 PM
Reply to: Message 572 by herebedragons
08-19-2017 12:17 PM


Re: RILs refute your idea of speciation
Ok. I also went back to my genetics book and realized the alleles do change thus a loss of data. Simplest example is just inheritance from the parents. However, none of that is showing that new kinds come into existence as I've been saying since post 396.
EvC Forum: MACROevolution vs MICROevolution - what is it?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 572 by herebedragons, posted 08-19-2017 12:17 PM herebedragons has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 584 by Coyote, posted 08-19-2017 1:32 PM DOCJ has replied
 Message 589 by herebedragons, posted 08-19-2017 2:53 PM DOCJ has replied
 Message 602 by RAZD, posted 08-20-2017 9:06 AM DOCJ has replied

  
DOCJ
Inactive Member


Message 581 of 908 (817738)
08-19-2017 1:24 PM
Reply to: Message 576 by herebedragons
08-19-2017 12:23 PM


Re: the usual silly wrong linear analogy
Ref post 580.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 576 by herebedragons, posted 08-19-2017 12:23 PM herebedragons has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 601 by Percy, posted 08-20-2017 8:40 AM DOCJ has replied

  
DOCJ
Inactive Member


Message 582 of 908 (817740)
08-19-2017 1:25 PM
Reply to: Message 574 by herebedragons
08-19-2017 12:19 PM


Re: the usual silly wrong linear analogy
Ref post 580

This message is a reply to:
 Message 574 by herebedragons, posted 08-19-2017 12:19 PM herebedragons has not replied

  
DOCJ
Inactive Member


Message 583 of 908 (817741)
08-19-2017 1:31 PM
Reply to: Message 575 by ringo
08-19-2017 12:21 PM


Re: Evolution has a built-in stopping point
I already responded to you.
EvC Forum: Creation

This message is a reply to:
 Message 575 by ringo, posted 08-19-2017 12:21 PM ringo has seen this message but not replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2105 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 584 of 908 (817742)
08-19-2017 1:32 PM
Reply to: Message 580 by DOCJ
08-19-2017 1:20 PM


Re: RILs refute your idea of speciation
none of that is showing that new kinds come into existence...
It might be helpful if you didn't use "kinds" as that is a religious term with no scientific definition or application.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.
Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other points of view--William F. Buckley Jr.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 580 by DOCJ, posted 08-19-2017 1:20 PM DOCJ has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 585 by DOCJ, posted 08-19-2017 1:56 PM Coyote has replied

  
DOCJ
Inactive Member


Message 585 of 908 (817745)
08-19-2017 1:56 PM
Reply to: Message 584 by Coyote
08-19-2017 1:32 PM


Re: RILs refute your idea of speciation
Ref prev post 396 for accepted definition of kind.
Edited by DOCJ, : No reason given.
Edited by DOCJ, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 584 by Coyote, posted 08-19-2017 1:32 PM Coyote has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 586 by Coyote, posted 08-19-2017 2:07 PM DOCJ has replied

  
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