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Author Topic:   True knowledge exists in knowing that you know nothing
Percy
Member
Posts: 18309
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 46 of 154 (818710)
09-01-2017 10:05 AM
Reply to: Message 44 by Porkncheese
09-01-2017 8:20 AM


Re: searchable database
Hey, Porky, welcome back! I didn't think we'd see you again.

Porkncheese in reply to RAZD writes:

This is on that website you provided.
"Dendrogram
The following dendrogram represents a somewhat misleadlingly linear "great chain of being" / "ascent of man" model of human evolution. Hopefully this will be corrected in future, as the various other branche son the primate evolutionary tree are fille dout."

What you quoted is on the website, but it's not one of the webpages RAZD linked to. It's on http://palaeos.com/vertebrates/primates/dendrogram.html. Don't know why RAZD sent you to that website. That dendrogram makes it seem like chimps (Pan) are descended from gorillas (they're not), and that people are descended from chimps (they're not). And then there's the typos.

Its says it's misleading. All the suggestions I've read on that site and elsewhere start with "probably" "perhaps" "maybe" or other words of this nature.

Yes, it's very misleading. And the words "probably", "perhaps" and "maybe' do not occur on this page, and I don't see where they occur on any other pages in ways that would lead you to question them, so you're going to have to be specific about which webpages.

Primate evolution, especially hominid evolution, is thought to be more of an incestuous bush than a linear progression.

I'm not sure what RAZD was trying to communicate, but here's a simple evolutionary tree that gives a good idea of degree of relatedness. As you can see, humans are closest to chimps, next closest to gorillas, next closest to orangutans, and so forth (click on image to enlarge):

You asked about evolution before primates, and that turns out to have a complicated answer. Old World monkeys split from New World monkeys about 35 million years ago, so obviously there were already primates by that time. As near as I can tell by poking about on Wikipedia (try https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_human_evolution) the first primates came about around a 100 million years ago at the same time as tree shrews, rodents and rabbits.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by Porkncheese, posted 09-01-2017 8:20 AM Porkncheese has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 48 by Porkncheese, posted 09-01-2017 10:42 AM Percy has acknowledged this reply

    
1.61803
Member
Posts: 2817
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


(1)
Message 47 of 154 (818711)
09-01-2017 10:10 AM
Reply to: Message 41 by Rrhain
09-01-2017 5:03 AM


Re: Inconclusive not absolute

Rrhain writes:

Indeed, you can find anybody to claim anything on the interwebs.


"You were not there for the beginning. You will not be there for the end. Your knowledge of what is going on can only be superficial and relative" William S. Burroughs

This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by Rrhain, posted 09-01-2017 5:03 AM Rrhain has not yet responded

  
Porkncheese
Member (Idle past 15 days)
Posts: 116
Joined: 08-25-2017


Message 48 of 154 (818712)
09-01-2017 10:42 AM
Reply to: Message 46 by Percy
09-01-2017 10:05 AM


Re: searchable database
On message 38 I asked what did the primate evolve from.
Message 39 suggested I search the web for answers.
Not sure why I'm being rediculed.

Anyhow that question remains.
What did the early primate evolve from?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by Percy, posted 09-01-2017 10:05 AM Percy has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 49 by Taq, posted 09-01-2017 10:55 AM Porkncheese has not yet responded
 Message 50 by Coyote, posted 09-01-2017 10:59 AM Porkncheese has not yet responded
 Message 51 by Tangle, posted 09-01-2017 10:59 AM Porkncheese has responded
 Message 87 by RAZD, posted 09-02-2017 10:50 AM Porkncheese has responded

    
Taq
Member
Posts: 7673
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 2.6


(4)
Message 49 of 154 (818713)
09-01-2017 10:55 AM
Reply to: Message 48 by Porkncheese
09-01-2017 10:42 AM


Re: searchable database
Porkncheese writes:

What did the early primate evolve from?

I may skip a few steps, but this is it in a nutshell.

Primates evolved from a common mammalian ancestor. Mammals evolved from a common synapsid ancestor. Synapsids evolved from a common tetrapod ancestor. Tetrapods evolved from a common vertebrate ancestor. Vertebrates evolved from a common eukaryote ancestor. Eukaryotes evolved from a lineage going back to the first life forms.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by Porkncheese, posted 09-01-2017 10:42 AM Porkncheese has not yet responded

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 183 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 50 of 154 (818714)
09-01-2017 10:59 AM
Reply to: Message 48 by Porkncheese
09-01-2017 10:42 AM


Re: searchable database
Not sure why I'm being rediculed.

You are meeting some pushback because you fit the standard creationist profile very closely, and we've seen this same behavior dozens of times in the past.


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.

Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other points of view--William F. Buckley Jr.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by Porkncheese, posted 09-01-2017 10:42 AM Porkncheese has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6675
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 51 of 154 (818715)
09-01-2017 10:59 AM
Reply to: Message 48 by Porkncheese
09-01-2017 10:42 AM


Re: searchable database
PorknCheese writes:

What did the early primate evolve from?

Well I copied and pasted your words....

"What did the early primate evolve from?"

...into google and the first hit was this:

http://anthro.palomar.edu/earlyprimates/early_2.htm

quote:
The first primate-like mammals, or proto-primates, evolved in the early Paleocene Epoch (65.5-55.8 million years ago) at the beginning of the Cenozoic Era. They were roughly similar to squirrels and tree shrews in size and appearance. The existing, very fragmentary fossil evidence (from Asia, Europe, North Africa, and especially Western North America) suggests that they were adapted to an arboreal way of life in warm, moist climates. They probably were equipped with relatively good eyesight as well as hands and feet adapted for climbing in trees. These primate-like mammals will remain rather shadowy creatures for us until more fossil data become available.

It goes on to explain in a lot more detail. You're going to have to live with the odd 'probably' now and then - when real scientists don't know the answer to total certainty, they say so and say why.

Is there a reason you're asking this question?


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by Porkncheese, posted 09-01-2017 10:42 AM Porkncheese has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 53 by Porkncheese, posted 09-01-2017 12:00 PM Tangle has responded

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 7673
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 2.6


(1)
Message 52 of 154 (818716)
09-01-2017 10:59 AM
Reply to: Message 44 by Porkncheese
09-01-2017 8:20 AM


Re: searchable database
Porkncheese writes:

Thanks for the links.
This is on that website you provided.
"Dendrogram
The following dendrogram represents a somewhat misleadlingly linear "great chain of being" / "ascent of man" model of human evolution. Hopefully this will be corrected in future, as the various other branche son the primate evolutionary tree are fille dout."

Its says it's misleading. All the suggestions I've read on that site and elsewhere start with "probably" "perhaps" "maybe" or other words of this nature.

Why?

It is misleading to put any fossil in a direct line of ancestry because you can't determine such relationships from fossils. Even if you dug up two human fossils you could not determine if one was the ancestor or descendant of the other.

What you can do is determine what features the fossil shares with other species, and then arrange those fossils in a cladogram according to their shared features. In a cladogram, no species is directly ancestral to another. For example, this is a cladogram for hominid species:


This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by Porkncheese, posted 09-01-2017 8:20 AM Porkncheese has not yet responded

  
Porkncheese
Member (Idle past 15 days)
Posts: 116
Joined: 08-25-2017


Message 53 of 154 (818718)
09-01-2017 12:00 PM
Reply to: Message 51 by Tangle
09-01-2017 10:59 AM


Re: searchable database
I did see that website

According to the quote presented

"The existing, very fragmentary fossil evidence suggests..."
"They probably were"
"These primate-like mammals will remain rather shadowy creatures for us until more fossil data become available"

Sure is alot of conjucture. And from this knowledge these trees are drawn up showing direct links between every species all the way back to the ocean.

Umm okay


This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by Tangle, posted 09-01-2017 10:59 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 54 by ringo, posted 09-01-2017 12:10 PM Porkncheese has not yet responded
 Message 55 by Coyote, posted 09-01-2017 12:12 PM Porkncheese has not yet responded
 Message 56 by Tangle, posted 09-01-2017 12:13 PM Porkncheese has not yet responded
 Message 57 by Taq, posted 09-01-2017 12:19 PM Porkncheese has not yet responded
 Message 58 by PaulK, posted 09-01-2017 12:46 PM Porkncheese has not yet responded

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 16231
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


(1)
Message 54 of 154 (818719)
09-01-2017 12:10 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by Porkncheese
09-01-2017 12:00 PM


Re: searchable database
Porkncheese writes:

Sure is alot of conjucture.


In Message 1 you were complaining that, "so many people seem to be so sure of their views and opinions."
Now you're complaining that there's too much conjecture?
Which is it?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by Porkncheese, posted 09-01-2017 12:00 PM Porkncheese has not yet responded

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 183 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 55 of 154 (818720)
09-01-2017 12:12 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by Porkncheese
09-01-2017 12:00 PM


Re: searchable database
Sure is alot of conjucture. And from this knowledge these trees are drawn up showing direct links between every species all the way back to the ocean.

Umm okay

And you have a better idea, I suppose?

Let's try a little quiz: what, in your opinion, is the age of the Earth?


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.

Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other points of view--William F. Buckley Jr.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by Porkncheese, posted 09-01-2017 12:00 PM Porkncheese has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6675
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 56 of 154 (818721)
09-01-2017 12:13 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by Porkncheese
09-01-2017 12:00 PM


Re: searchable database
PorknCheese writes:

"The existing, very fragmentary fossil evidence suggests..."
"They probably were"
"These primate-like mammals will remain rather shadowy creatures for us until more fossil data become available"

Sure is alot of conjucture. And from this knowledge these trees are drawn up showing direct links between every species all the way back to the ocean.

It's not conjecture it's presenting the facts as we know them. But did you read the whole article? It gives you a readable and easily understood explanation of how primates evolved?

Umm okay

Is that 'ok I understand' or 'ok, just as I thought, bullshit'?

Here's the summary of what we know.

quote:
Primates are relative newcomers on our planet. The earliest ones are found in the fossil record dating to 50-55 million years ago. These first prosimians thrived during the Eocene Epoch. There were no monkeys or apes for them to compete with yet. By the time of the transition to the Oligocene Epoch, monkeys had begun to evolve from prosimians and became the dominant primates. Many of the prosimian species became extinct probably as a consequence. By the early Miocene Epoch, apes had evolved from monkeys and displaced them from many environments. In the late Miocene, the evolutionary line leading to hominins finally became distinct. This hominin line included our direct ancestors.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by Porkncheese, posted 09-01-2017 12:00 PM Porkncheese has not yet responded

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 7673
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 2.6


(3)
Message 57 of 154 (818722)
09-01-2017 12:19 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by Porkncheese
09-01-2017 12:00 PM


Re: searchable database
Porkncheese writes:

Sure is alot of conjucture. And from this knowledge these trees are drawn up showing direct links between every species all the way back to the ocean.

Fossil data is not the only data there is. DNA data is extremely powerful, and it clearly shows that all vertebrates share a common ancestor, all the way back to the ocean.

Edited by Taq, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by Porkncheese, posted 09-01-2017 12:00 PM Porkncheese has not yet responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 14750
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 1.7


(4)
Message 58 of 154 (818723)
09-01-2017 12:46 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by Porkncheese
09-01-2017 12:00 PM


Science and honesty
One of the fundamental points of science is to have the honesty to admit to uncertainties. Even in physics there is uncertainty in many measurements, and that uncertainty has to be accounted for. Sometimes - in astronomy for instance - the uncertainties can be very large.

So, for phylogenies where the evidence is sparse and fragmentary - and we are likely missing many species - scientists do the best they can and where the evidence is inconclusive they admit to it.

And sometimes something comes along that shakes things up. Recently there was a proposal that proposed a rather different view of the relationship between two major dinosaur groups. Now there is new evidence around the evolution of the ray-finned fish. Ancient fish skulls

But this is science. If you want false certainty, then religion can give you that. But science's honesty and willingness to admit the possibility of error is the reason why science has a far better record of getting to the truth.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by Porkncheese, posted 09-01-2017 12:00 PM Porkncheese has not yet responded

    
Porkncheese
Member (Idle past 15 days)
Posts: 116
Joined: 08-25-2017


Message 59 of 154 (818728)
09-01-2017 2:38 PM


ToE admits defeat
ToE has collapsed under its own admissions of speculation being drawn from fossil evidence that is “very fragmented”.

In a revealing statement that completely exposed the theory it was admitted that “Mammals will remain rather shadowy creatures for us until more fossil data become available”

Obviously not enough data to draw factual conclusions from


Replies to this message:
 Message 60 by Taq, posted 09-01-2017 3:16 PM Porkncheese has responded
 Message 61 by Tangle, posted 09-01-2017 3:22 PM Porkncheese has not yet responded
 Message 63 by Percy, posted 09-01-2017 3:56 PM Porkncheese has not yet responded
 Message 66 by JonF, posted 09-01-2017 4:45 PM Porkncheese has responded
 Message 68 by Modulous, posted 09-01-2017 5:50 PM Porkncheese has not yet responded

    
Taq
Member
Posts: 7673
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 2.6


(1)
Message 60 of 154 (818730)
09-01-2017 3:16 PM
Reply to: Message 59 by Porkncheese
09-01-2017 2:38 PM


Re: ToE admits defeat
Porkncheese writes:

ToE has collapsed under its own admissions of speculation being drawn from fossil evidence that is “very fragmented”.

Again, fossils aren't the only evidence. The DNA evidence on its own has proven evolution beyond any reasonable doubt.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by Porkncheese, posted 09-01-2017 2:38 PM Porkncheese has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 62 by Porkncheese, posted 09-01-2017 3:41 PM Taq has responded

  
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