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Author Topic:   "Natural" (plant-based) Health Solutions
Faith
Inactive Member


Message 31 of 606 (818845)
09-03-2017 1:43 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by Granny Magda
09-03-2017 1:17 PM


Re: A Cancer Survivor Anecdote; Abraham Cherrix
I don't follow Mercola, why are you carrying on about him? All I said about him was that I've occasionally found useful information on his site when I'm googling for something. I also get information from WebMD and the Mayo Clinic and Josh Axe and others.

I've also never heard of Hoxsey except from you but what you mention about animals doesn't seem cruel to me, maybe ineffective, that I don't know, but not cruel.

I don't really follow anyone, but I've mostly been reading on Chris Wark's site recently and haven't found any of the weird stuff there. I read some about Gerson because Jay Kordich claimed his treatment cured his bladder cancer, but what I get from all that is the importance of juicing and fresh vegetables and fruits. Gerson includes some stuff I wouldn't follow myself -- enemas and colonics -- but nothing as weird as Cherrix did.

There are also some odd philosophies about all this that I don't pay a lot of attention to, which could be a topic of discussion at some point. (Well, my view always takes the Fall into consideration and I don't see even other Christians taking that into account. They tend to talk in terms of how the body was designed to heal itself and they think of plant foods as aiding that natural healing process. That's not entirely different from what I think, but I think more in terms of how the Fall has brought disease and death into the world so that the body's ability to heal is also compromised, but that God still provides healing through plants if we take the time to learn about them and maximize their potentials.)

Some sites raise a question like, Does carrot juice heal the herpes blister or does it strengthen the immune system which heals it? Not that it matters really I suppose.

Anyway, addressing treatments I'm not addressing or that I know nothing about doesn't exactly further the conversation here.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by Granny Magda, posted 09-03-2017 1:17 PM Granny Magda has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by Granny Magda, posted 09-03-2017 2:08 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
Granny Magda
Member
Posts: 2380
From: UK
Joined: 11-12-2007


(2)
Message 32 of 606 (818846)
09-03-2017 1:49 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by Faith
09-03-2017 11:52 AM


Re: Alternative Medicine Kills Cancer Patients
It's all a matter of whom you believe in the end, even which supposed studies you believe.

I disagree. It's not about who you believe. It's about what the best available data shows. Even the most basic data analysis shows that chemotherapy can beat cancer. By contrast, you haven't even tried to provide any evidence that alt-med can treat cancer beyond a few vague and confused testimonials.

And why was Wark told after the surgery that he had a 60% chance of living another five years on the standard treatment? (Which he found out applied to all cancer patients, while his colon cancer in reality had a 28% chance.)

Simple; he's talking bollocks. I have no idea where he got the 28% figure for all cancers from. I can't find it anywhere. It sounds wrong to me. On his website Wark cites completely different numbers. He was probably told that he had about a 60% chance because that was the doctor's estimate of his chance! Note that this is not far off what Gorski estimates.

It is unclear whether any of this is meant to be with or without chemo since you haven't really given me a precise citation. Where is this quote exactly? Somewhere in the nearly two hours of video you posted? Could you narrow it down for me so i know exactly what I'm supposed to be responding to? Wark has repeatedly demonstrated that he does not understand the treatment he was offered. I am extremely sceptical of his version of events regarding that precise point.

I'm not objecting to surgery, just to chemotherapy which is so horrible for those who go through it, and die anyway.

If course it is. But no-one ever claimed that chemo can cure all cancer. What would be horrible would be if these people didn't have chemo, because that would lead to more deaths.

I count an aunt and a friend, and an acquaintance.

I'm sorry to hear that, but all I see are more vague anecdotes. And again, yes, some people will die of cancer. That is so obvious as to be a non point. The point is that fewer die with chemo.

Meanwhile Jay Kordich took Gerson's juice treatment for his bladder cancer as a y7oung man and lived to be 93; a local man did carrot juice and lived 25 years beyond his diagnosis of prostate cancer.

Yes, and a man I know was bitten by a skunk and he survived cancer! Another guy used to chew gum every third Wednesday and he lived to be a hundred and four!

None of this constitutes evidence of efficacy. You can't demonstrate a causal link with a few anecdotes. You need proper clinical and epidemiological studies for that. Sadly, the alt-med crowd have no appetite for reality and they don't bother to find the truth. Comforting fantasy trumps a disagreeable truth every time in alt-med land.

Mutate and Survive


This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by Faith, posted 09-03-2017 11:52 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by NoNukes, posted 09-03-2017 4:22 PM Granny Magda has not yet responded
 Message 35 by Faith, posted 09-03-2017 5:32 PM Granny Magda has responded

    
Granny Magda
Member
Posts: 2380
From: UK
Joined: 11-12-2007


Message 33 of 606 (818848)
09-03-2017 2:08 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by Faith
09-03-2017 1:43 PM


Re: A Cancer Survivor Anecdote; Abraham Cherrix
I don't follow Mercola, why are you carrying on about him?

You cited him, that's all. All I'm trying to point out is that Hoxsey really isn't any more "weird" (your phrasing) than any other alt-med fad. Gerson, for example, is just as flaky, just as surely proven infective.

Josh Axe by the way is a chiropractor and naturopath and, as always with these people, a snake-oil pedlar, not a medical doctor.

Gerson includes some stuff I wouldn't follow myself -- enemas and colonics -- but nothing as weird as Cherrix did.

What exactly is so weird about it? Almost all alt-med quacks recommend some sort of herb or other. Why this so weird compared to some of the insane nonsense peddled on quack sites?

Mutate and Survive


This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by Faith, posted 09-03-2017 1:43 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 34 of 606 (818853)
09-03-2017 4:22 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by Granny Magda
09-03-2017 1:49 PM


Re: Alternative Medicine Kills Cancer Patients
Simple; he's talking bollocks. I have no idea where he got the 28% figure for all cancers from.

Not that straightening this out will help a little, but Faith cited a 28% rate for colon cancer. However, that is not a good number even for colon cancer survival, which suggests that you are right. If Wark says 28%, he is not correct. Probably talking bullocks.

But sadly getting the facts right just won't help.

I disagree. It's not about who you believe. It's about what the best available data shows.

At least it ought to be.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I was thinking as long as I have my hands up … they’re not going to shoot me. This is what I’m thinking — they’re not going to shoot me. Wow, was I wrong. -- Charles Kinsey

I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by Granny Magda, posted 09-03-2017 1:49 PM Granny Magda has not yet responded

  
Faith
Inactive Member


Message 35 of 606 (818855)
09-03-2017 5:32 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by Granny Magda
09-03-2017 1:49 PM


Re: Alternative Medicine Kills Cancer Patients
And why was Wark told after the surgery that he had a 60% chance of living another five years on the standard treatment? (Which he found out applied to all cancer patients, while his colon cancer in reality had a 28% chance.)

Simple; he's talking bollocks. I have no idea where he got the 28% figure for all cancers from. I can't find it anywhere. It sounds wrong to me. On his website Wark cites completely different numbers. He was probably told that he had about a 60% chance because that was the doctor's estimate of his chance! Note that this is not far off what Gorski estimates.

Of course you would know a lot better than he would, of course.

As NN pointed out, he did not say 28% for all cancers but only for his own stage 3 colon cancer.

It is unclear whether any of this is meant to be with or without chemo since you haven't really given me a precise citation. Where is this quote exactly?

It was said to him before he decided against doing chemo so it was meant to be with chemo.

Anyway, he said it on the video in Message 1 from 11:10 to 12:00

Josh Axe is another who promotes roughly the same stuff, I don't follow him either or know the range of his advice, but his name comes up as does Mercola's on some google questions. Also a bunch of vegan sites

And I don't appreciate your silly parody about people doing absurd things and living long lives. I mentioned people who had cancer and beat it with vegetable juices. abe: Is that really a sufficient answer to the observation I made of five people diagnosed with cancer who all died within a few years on standard treatment, versus two I know of who were diagnosed with cancer and lived long lives after treatment with carrot and other vegetable juices. Really?

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by Granny Magda, posted 09-03-2017 1:49 PM Granny Magda has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by NoNukes, posted 09-03-2017 6:06 PM Faith has responded
 Message 53 by Granny Magda, posted 09-04-2017 6:35 AM Faith has responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 36 of 606 (818858)
09-03-2017 6:06 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by Faith
09-03-2017 5:32 PM


Re: Alternative Medicine Kills Cancer Patients
As NN pointed out, he did not say 28% for all cancers but only for his own stage 3 colon cancer.

I also pointed out that his answer for the survivability of stage III cancer was not correct; depending on the details it is around 50-90% with treatment, which still suggests that he was wrong.

I know it was in a video. But it still seems to be wrong.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I was thinking as long as I have my hands up … they’re not going to shoot me. This is what I’m thinking — they’re not going to shoot me. Wow, was I wrong. -- Charles Kinsey

I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by Faith, posted 09-03-2017 5:32 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by Faith, posted 09-03-2017 6:30 PM NoNukes has responded

  
Faith
Inactive Member


Message 37 of 606 (818860)
09-03-2017 6:30 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by NoNukes
09-03-2017 6:06 PM


Re: Alternative Medicine Kills Cancer Patients
You said "stage III cancer," Wark said "stage III COLON cancer" so did you just leave out that word?

Also he got diagnosed in 2003. Is your statistic recent?

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by NoNukes, posted 09-03-2017 6:06 PM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by NoNukes, posted 09-03-2017 6:38 PM Faith has responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 38 of 606 (818861)
09-03-2017 6:38 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by Faith
09-03-2017 6:30 PM


Re: Alternative Medicine Kills Cancer Patients
You said "stage III cancer," Wark said "stage III COLON cancer" so did you just leave out that word?

Yes, I just left on colon cancer.

Also he got diagnosed in 2003. Is your statistic recent?

What you are telling me is that you yourself accepted his answer without checking.

It will not be productive for us to discuss this. I know that once you've seen a video that you agree with, and once you have locked in on some anecdotes, there is no point in further discussion. I will just make you angry.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I was thinking as long as I have my hands up … they’re not going to shoot me. This is what I’m thinking — they’re not going to shoot me. Wow, was I wrong. -- Charles Kinsey

I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by Faith, posted 09-03-2017 6:30 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by Faith, posted 09-03-2017 6:52 PM NoNukes has responded

  
Faith
Inactive Member


Message 39 of 606 (818862)
09-03-2017 6:52 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by NoNukes
09-03-2017 6:38 PM


Re: Alternative Medicine Kills Cancer Patients
I'm not researching this, true, I'm reporting on what people are saying. So far I haven't seen any serious debunkery but who knows, maybe I will yet.

However, the point of my asking about how recent your statistic is, is that I would expect some improvement in chemo treatments since then.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by NoNukes, posted 09-03-2017 6:38 PM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by NoNukes, posted 09-03-2017 6:59 PM Faith has responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 40 of 606 (818863)
09-03-2017 6:59 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by Faith
09-03-2017 6:52 PM


Re: Alternative Medicine Kills Cancer Patients
However, the point of my asking about how recent your statistic is, is that I would expect some improvement in chemo treatments since then.

So would I. So why listen to 2003 medical advice from someone who you do not have the time or inclination to check up on?

See how infuriating I am?


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I was thinking as long as I have my hands up … they’re not going to shoot me. This is what I’m thinking — they’re not going to shoot me. Wow, was I wrong. -- Charles Kinsey

I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by Faith, posted 09-03-2017 6:52 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 41 by Faith, posted 09-03-2017 7:10 PM NoNukes has responded

  
Faith
Inactive Member


Message 41 of 606 (818865)
09-03-2017 7:10 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by NoNukes
09-03-2017 6:59 PM


Re: Alternative Medicine Kills Cancer Patients
If it worked it worked.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by NoNukes, posted 09-03-2017 6:59 PM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by NoNukes, posted 09-03-2017 8:30 PM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 43 by NoNukes, posted 09-03-2017 8:32 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 42 of 606 (818871)
09-03-2017 8:30 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by Faith
09-03-2017 7:10 PM


Re: Alternative Medicine Kills Cancer Patients
If it worked it worked.

Sigh. Post hoc ergo propter hoc.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I was thinking as long as I have my hands up … they’re not going to shoot me. This is what I’m thinking — they’re not going to shoot me. Wow, was I wrong. -- Charles Kinsey

I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by Faith, posted 09-03-2017 7:10 PM Faith has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by jar, posted 09-03-2017 8:38 PM NoNukes has responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 43 of 606 (818872)
09-03-2017 8:32 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by Faith
09-03-2017 7:10 PM


Re: Alternative Medicine Kills Cancer Patients
If it worked it worked.

Sigh. Post hoc ergo propter hoc.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I was thinking as long as I have my hands up … they’re not going to shoot me. This is what I’m thinking — they’re not going to shoot me. Wow, was I wrong. -- Charles Kinsey

I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by Faith, posted 09-03-2017 7:10 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 30934
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 44 of 606 (818873)
09-03-2017 8:38 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by NoNukes
09-03-2017 8:30 PM


Re: Alternative Medicine Kills Cancer Patients
That also assumes the guy is telling the truth, that he ever even had cancer and that he is not just another "miracle cure carny sideshow clown Testifying for Profit" that knows where the most gullible people are to be found.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by NoNukes, posted 09-03-2017 8:30 PM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by NoNukes, posted 09-03-2017 10:45 PM jar has not yet responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 45 of 606 (818874)
09-03-2017 10:45 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by jar
09-03-2017 8:38 PM


Re: Alternative Medicine Kills Cancer Patients
"That also assumes the guy is telling the truth, that he ever even had cancer and that he is not just another"

I am convinced that he did have cancer. Here is one article discussing what was going on with Chris Wark.

https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/chris-beat-cancer/


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I was thinking as long as I have my hands up … they’re not going to shoot me. This is what I’m thinking — they’re not going to shoot me. Wow, was I wrong. -- Charles Kinsey

I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by jar, posted 09-03-2017 8:38 PM jar has not yet responded

  
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