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Author Topic:   Revolting middle class. If the rich keep funding war with the lives of the lower clas
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 52 of 86 (819316)
09-09-2017 11:48 AM
Reply to: Message 51 by Greatest I am
09-08-2017 1:54 PM


Re: Dumbest We Are?
Greatest I am writes:
The capability and capasity to give to a society is one of the measures of that individuals fitness. So is the lack of that ability.
If not, show why not.
I have already pointed out that there are no fixed subsets of "givers" and "takers". He who gives one day takes the next day. How do you measure contributions that don't involve dollars and cents? How do you determine what is a contribution and what is not?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by Greatest I am, posted 09-08-2017 1:54 PM Greatest I am has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 53 by Greatest I am, posted 09-09-2017 12:22 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 54 of 86 (819325)
09-09-2017 12:28 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by Greatest I am
09-09-2017 12:22 PM


Re: Dumbest We Are?
Greatest I am writes:
I did not say that tax takers do not contribute at all. I said that they are less fit and contribute less due to having to be tax takers.
I asked how you determine what is a contribution and what is not, and how you measure "how much" each contribution is. Without some kind of objective metric, you have no basis for claiming that one person is "more fit" than another.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by Greatest I am, posted 09-09-2017 12:22 PM Greatest I am has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 55 by Greatest I am, posted 09-09-2017 12:42 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 56 of 86 (819329)
09-09-2017 12:54 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by Greatest I am
09-09-2017 12:42 PM


Re: Dumbest We Are?
Greatest I am writes:
You are asking for subjective judgements of individual cases.
No I'm not. I even used the word "objective". I'm asking for objective criteria which you can use to determine whether somebody is "more fit" than somebody else.
Greatest I am writes:
I gave one fitness metric, that being tax paying v/s tax taking....
We've been over that. There isn't one finite group paying taxes and another finite group receiving the benefits of taxes. Everybody pays taxes and everybody receives the benefits of taxes.
Greatest I am writes:
Other metrics could be reproduction, ability to raise children...
We've been over that too. In fact, people with lower incomes tend to have more children.
Greatest I am writes:
... the ability to help others.
Again everybody has the ability to help others. How do you measure the value of grandpa taking the kids to the park? How do you measure the value of pushing your neighbour's car out of a snowdrift?
Greatest I am writes:
So what metric, if not those, should I be looking at.
You should be looking at a metric that supports your claim, an objective criterion that can be used to determine who is "fit" and who is not.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by Greatest I am, posted 09-09-2017 12:42 PM Greatest I am has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 57 by Greatest I am, posted 09-09-2017 1:16 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 58 of 86 (819335)
09-09-2017 1:26 PM
Reply to: Message 57 by Greatest I am
09-09-2017 1:16 PM


Re: Dumbest We Are?
Greatest I am writes:
Since most issues are subjective, the only objective criteria I can give is death.
So, since you admit that your conclusion is based on subjective criteria, you must also admit that your conclusion is subjective. You might as well just tell us what your favorite colour is.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by Greatest I am, posted 09-09-2017 1:16 PM Greatest I am has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 59 by Greatest I am, posted 09-09-2017 6:12 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 60 of 86 (819390)
09-10-2017 2:07 PM
Reply to: Message 59 by Greatest I am
09-09-2017 6:12 PM


Re: Dumbest We Are?
Greatest I am writes:
But even that will be subjective as many of us are color blind.
So your whole point about "fitness" isn't really a point at all. It's just an opinion.
Edited by ringo, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by Greatest I am, posted 09-09-2017 6:12 PM Greatest I am has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 61 by Greatest I am, posted 09-10-2017 3:37 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 62 of 86 (819400)
09-10-2017 3:52 PM
Reply to: Message 61 by Greatest I am
09-10-2017 3:37 PM


Re: Dumbest We Are?
Greatest I am writes:
The fact that there is a fittest human is objective.
Then tell us how you determine that objectively.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by Greatest I am, posted 09-10-2017 3:37 PM Greatest I am has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 63 by Greatest I am, posted 09-10-2017 3:56 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 64 of 86 (819463)
09-11-2017 11:37 AM
Reply to: Message 63 by Greatest I am
09-10-2017 3:56 PM


Re: Dumbest We Are?
Greatest I am writes:
Via subjective judgement.
If the method is subjective, the conclusion is subjective.
Greatest I am writes:
How else can one differentiate between contestants?
Objectively you can't, which is what I've been saying all along.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by Greatest I am, posted 09-10-2017 3:56 PM Greatest I am has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 65 by Greatest I am, posted 09-11-2017 12:26 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 66 of 86 (819467)
09-11-2017 12:28 PM
Reply to: Message 65 by Greatest I am
09-11-2017 12:26 PM


Re: Dumbest We Are?
Greatest I am writes:
The needs or good of the many outweigh the needs or good of the few must be judged subjectively but I think, since the conclusion is always for it. that might just be the only objective moral tenet I can think of.
There is nothing more subjective than "the needs of the many".

This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by Greatest I am, posted 09-11-2017 12:26 PM Greatest I am has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 67 by Greatest I am, posted 09-11-2017 2:12 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 68 of 86 (819534)
09-12-2017 11:36 AM
Reply to: Message 67 by Greatest I am
09-11-2017 2:12 PM


Re: Dumbest We Are?
Greatest I am writes:
That is what I just said, yes.
So your whole premise about "fitness" is dead.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by Greatest I am, posted 09-11-2017 2:12 PM Greatest I am has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 69 by Greatest I am, posted 09-12-2017 4:03 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 72 of 86 (819629)
09-13-2017 3:50 PM
Reply to: Message 69 by Greatest I am
09-12-2017 4:03 PM


Re: Dumbest We Are?
Greatest I am writes:
Show the logic trail.
You admitted it was all subjective. QED.
Now YOU show the logic that bridges from subjective opinions to objective conclusions. Show us how you get reliable conclusions from unfounded premises.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by Greatest I am, posted 09-12-2017 4:03 PM Greatest I am has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 74 by Greatest I am, posted 09-14-2017 9:28 AM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 75 of 86 (819733)
09-14-2017 11:35 AM
Reply to: Message 74 by Greatest I am
09-14-2017 9:28 AM


Re: Dumbest We Are?
Greatest I am writes:
What unfounded premise?
The premise that you can tell who is "fit" and who is not. You admitted that the judgement was subjective; therefore the premise is unfounded.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by Greatest I am, posted 09-14-2017 9:28 AM Greatest I am has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 76 by Greatest I am, posted 09-14-2017 12:15 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 77 of 86 (819739)
09-14-2017 12:41 PM
Reply to: Message 76 by Greatest I am
09-14-2017 12:15 PM


Re: Dumbest We Are?
Greatest I am writes:
Show any example of any group of diverse people and their characteristics and I think that both of us will likely agree on who is the fittest and who is the less fit.
No, we will not. I have said that it is not possible to say who is "fit" and who is not. If the poorest person in the group has children, she is "fit", even if she depends on the richest person in the group to support them. If the richest person has no children, he is not "fit".
You can not look at a person and decide whether or not he is fit. You can only look back at his life and see whether he was fit.
Greatest I am writes:
If we could not generally agree, that would refute what I put.
Done, done and repeatedly done. Your point is refuted.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by Greatest I am, posted 09-14-2017 12:15 PM Greatest I am has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 78 by Greatest I am, posted 09-14-2017 12:49 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 79 of 86 (819744)
09-14-2017 12:57 PM
Reply to: Message 78 by Greatest I am
09-14-2017 12:49 PM


Re: Dumbest We Are?
Greatest I am writes:
If the only criteria on your requirement for fitness is reproduction then you win this one.
You haven't said what your criteria are.
Greatest I am writes:
You might remember that even brain dead people on life support can reproduce.
They, to you, are the fittest as compared to nurses that might be caring for them who cannot reproduce.
If you have better criteria, just tell us what they are.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by Greatest I am, posted 09-14-2017 12:49 PM Greatest I am has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 80 by Greatest I am, posted 09-14-2017 2:10 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 81 of 86 (819946)
09-15-2017 11:43 AM
Reply to: Message 80 by Greatest I am
09-14-2017 2:10 PM


Re: Dumbest We Are?
Greatest I am writes:
Being a tax payer who can support his children instead of a tax taker who cannot without help we already spoke about.
But you did not want to admit that the former is more fit than the later.
Let me try again.
Which of those two criteria is fittest to you view and why?
As I have said several times, there is no way of telling what somebody's "fitness" is.
Paying taxes is not the only way that people contribute to society. The recipient of benefits may contribute in other ways - e.g. as a volunteer. The child of a recipient may become a major contributor in taxes or in other ways.
Stop running in circles and tell us how you can determine objectively whether a particular person is "fit" or not.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by Greatest I am, posted 09-14-2017 2:10 PM Greatest I am has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 82 by Greatest I am, posted 09-15-2017 11:54 AM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 83 of 86 (819961)
09-15-2017 12:23 PM
Reply to: Message 82 by Greatest I am
09-15-2017 11:54 AM


Re: Dumbest We Are?
Greatest I am writes:
In an evolving world, I don't think there can be an objective fitness because the environment is always changing and so would the description of fitness.
That's what I've been trying to tell you: Your claim about taxpayers being more "fit" than benefit recipients is nonsense.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by Greatest I am, posted 09-15-2017 11:54 AM Greatest I am has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 84 by Phat, posted 09-15-2017 12:42 PM ringo has replied

  
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