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Author Topic:   Evidence of the flood
JonF
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Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 286 of 899 (819415)
09-10-2017 6:48 PM
Reply to: Message 274 by Faith
09-10-2017 4:45 PM


If the context requires that you STATE your argument, the context requires that you DISCUSS and DEFEND your statement.

This message is a reply to:
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dwise1
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Posts: 5076
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 2.7


(1)
Message 287 of 899 (819416)
09-10-2017 6:55 PM
Reply to: Message 276 by riVeRraT
09-10-2017 5:10 PM


What this is about is being able to be open minded enough so you won't be held back from finding Christ.

Then you are going about it completely backwards and are instead creating obstacles for anyone to find Christ.

Years ago I came across Dr. Allan H. Harvey, a practicing Christian and a scientist (Ph.D. Chemical Engineering) who had written essays about science and religion. What he wrote in Science and Christian Apologetics describes the effects of the mistake that you are making:

quote:
I want to start with an observation about apologetics in general. When people say they reject Christianity, a lot of the time what they're really rejecting is something else. Maybe they're rejecting televangelists, or some hypocrisy they saw in their parents or their parents' church, maybe they're rejecting the politics of the Christian Coalition, or some opinion about science that they think is an essential part of the faith. I think an important part of apologetics is to recognize these misconceptions and clear them out of the way so people can consider the actual Gospel of Jesus Christ. There may be things they'll reject there (Paul said the Gospel is foolishness to those who are perishing), but at least then you’re dealing with the real issues and not these distractions.

I have an example of this from my own experience. When I was working on my Ph.D., I shared a lab with a man from Taiwan named Albert. One day there was an evangelist making noise on campus, and Albert asked me a question out of the blue: "How can you be a Christian and believe all that Creationism stuff?" I managed to mumble something about how "that stuff" wasn't what Christianity was all about. But Albert's question had illustrated the problems we have with science and apologetics.

Albert knew that the claims of so-called "creation science" about the Earth being only 6000 years old and so forth were ridiculous, like saying the Earth was flat. I can't blame him for not wanting to be associated with that nonsense. But what's worse is that that was the first thing that came to Albert’s mind about Christianity. Not the death and resurrection of Jesus. Not even the Golden Rule or the Ten Commandments. The anti-science noise had drowned out the Gospel so all Albert had heard was a false Gospel, one that was centered in a particular interpretation of Genesis rather than being centered in Christ. [Gal. 1:6-9]

Of course another problem was that, in the 2 or 3 years I had known Albert, I had failed to share my faith with him well enough to correct his misconceptions. Fortunately for me, that's not our topic today.

My concern is what can we do to correct the misconceptions that people have (both people like Albert and some Christians) that the findings of science (geology, astronomy, biological sciences [including evolution]) are incompatible with Christianity, that embracing Jesus means rejecting science. And it's a serious problem. It's serious because there are people like Albert out there who know science, and we put stumbling blocks in the way of them even considering Jesus. You hear missionaries talk about unreached people groups; here's a group of people that aren't hearing the Gospel because they can’t get past the huge credibility barrier put up by the things some Christians say about science.

But it's also serious because of its effects on Christians, and I'm especially worried about children. If we teach our children that they have to choose between science and faith, we're setting them up for a fall. Because some of them are going to grow up and study the real world God made and learn that what the church has told them about science is false. If we've taught them that the Gospel or the truth of the Bible depends on those things, then it's like the house built on sand, their foundation gets washed away, and their faith may go with it. I think Jesus had some words about those who set people up to stumble on issues like this: [Luke 17:1-2] "Stumbling blocks are sure to come; but woe to him by whom they come! It would be better for him if a millstone were hung round his neck and he were cast into the sea, than that he should cause one of these little ones to stumble."

So, how do we give our children a foundation that won't crumble the first time they take a college science class, and how do we keep science from being a stumbling block to people like Albert? I've thought about these things a lot, and I've decided that at the root of our problems are two fundamental mistakes, and both of them involve taking our human philosophy and letting it dictate to God what he can and can't do. I hope you'd all agree that dictating to God isn't a good idea.


Is that really what you want to do? To drive people away from ever considering Christianity?

I would add to that by pointing out that my 35-plus years studying "creation science" and its myriad false claims have taught me much about creationist and Christian dishonesty. Is that what finding Christ is supposed to lead you to, complete immorality? That is a very strong recommendation to avoid that religion altogether.

I would recommend reading the rest of that essay, which also gets into the false theology of "The God of the Gaps", which I have found to be central to "Intelligent Design" and strongly present in "creation science." He lists his essays at http://steamdoc.itgo.com/writings.htm. I think it was through his essay on the bogus claim NASA computer program having found Joshua's Long Day that I found him. That claim was one of the first creationist claims I was told and it was enough to convince me that creationism was completely and utterly false and, since fundamentalist Christianity would require me to believe it, that made that religion false as well. I have long since revisited that conclusion and have found it to still hold true.


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 288 by Faith, posted 09-10-2017 9:46 PM dwise1 has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 684 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


(1)
Message 288 of 899 (819425)
09-10-2017 9:46 PM
Reply to: Message 287 by dwise1
09-10-2017 6:55 PM


Capitulating to "Science"is the real mistake
Albert knew that the claims of so-called "creation science" about the Earth being only 6000 years old and so forth were ridiculous, like saying the Earth was flat. I can't blame him for not wanting to be associated with that nonsense.

There is more than one kind of confusion going on here. The 6000 years is not merely "Creation Science," it's what probably a majority of Bible-literalist Christians believe who don't get into the scientific questions at all. They believe in a literal six days of creation based on the 24-hour day, they believe that death did not exist before the Fall, they believe in a worldwide Flood occurring some time after the Creation though many may not have worked out the timing, and so on. Because that's all clearly implied in the Bible, which they regard as the inspired word of God.

So while I agree that these things are secondary issues if your goal is persuasion to Christ, they are all basic biblical truths for Bible-inerrancy Christians. I certainly thought 6000 years was ridiculous too before I was a believer, but when I realized that is really what the Bible says and believed it, it made me laugh at the immense abyss between Christianity and science. Although it's all intimately wrapped up in salvation, it's probably not a useful place to start persuading someone to salvation. On the other hand, if that's where we have to start so be it, God's the saver of souls and our job is just to represent His word, however uncomfortable. And as the author also says, the gospel itself is "foolishness" to the world so there isn't much that isn't uncomfortable.

What the Church has taught about the timing in Genesis is NOT false, it's just very hard to defend it in the teeth of the undeserved credibility of today's Old Earth sciences. It's God who saves; all any Christian can do is pass on the message, as we are told to do. And fudging the uncomfortable disconnect between science's timing and the Bible's timing is lying, and there's no way a lie can be the basis for drawing anyone to the truth of Christ's salvation. THAT is the big mistake your author Allen Harvey makes. We have to defend what seems like an absurdity to the world if we are put in that position, there is no way around it, and leave it to God to change hearts and minds.

The only foundation you can give Christian children is the truth and the truth contradicts Old Earth Science. The only way to protect them as they go to university is tell them about the contradiction and warn them that they will encounter opposition and pray for them.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 287 by dwise1, posted 09-10-2017 6:55 PM dwise1 has replied

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Coyote
Member (Idle past 1346 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(1)
Message 289 of 899 (819427)
09-10-2017 11:11 PM
Reply to: Message 288 by Faith
09-10-2017 9:46 PM


Re: Capitulating to "Science"is the real mistake
The only foundation you can give Christian children is the truth and the truth contradicts Old Earth Science.

Science contradicts and disproves young earth beliefs with mountains of evidence.

If you want Christian children to be prepared for the real world, it is best not to try and teach them beliefs which are contradicted and disproved so easily by real-world evidence.

That just teaches them to distrust the other beliefs which they are taught.


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.

Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other points of view--William F. Buckley Jr.


This message is a reply to:
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dwise1
Member
Posts: 5076
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 2.7


(1)
Message 290 of 899 (819429)
09-11-2017 12:00 AM
Reply to: Message 288 by Faith
09-10-2017 9:46 PM


Re: Capitulating to "Science"is the real mistake
The only foundation you can give Christian children is the truth and the truth contradicts Old Earth Science. The only way to protect them as they go to university is tell them about the contradiction and warn them that they will encounter opposition and pray for them.

Sorry, but no it doesn't. When I started studying creationist claims circa 1981, it was mainly the young-earth claims. I haven't found a single one to be true. Most of the time, they simply don't understand the science (eg, the "leap second" claim involving the earth's slowing rate of rotation). In many cases, they misrepresent scientific sources, at times even deliberately. I have even seen them fabricate "evidence".

One thing I have noticed is that the number of creationists who allow themselves to discuss young-earth claims are being fewer and fewer. Even the most fervent YECs will go to extremes to avoid discussion young-earth claims. Kind of like even they can read the writing on the wall. Even they realize that young-earth claims are the weakest link in creationism.

Here's yet another pearl. Even though I'm sure you will ignore it, others may benefit. In the late 1990's, a former YEC contacted me for advice in a discussion he had gotten himself into. I only know him as "Ed". I have since lost track of him on-line, but I had saved copies of his small website and have reposted them here: Creation, Evolution and Adam. Actually, he did reappear once, set up his site again for a while, then disappeared again.

This is from his autobiographical page, My Search:

quote:

It is not my intent to share my testimony here. I met Jesus in 1983 and have truly seen my life turn around! I have always loved science and would have classified myself as an agnostic and to say that I was not skeptical after I was saved would be a lie. I investigated the claims of the Bible (not realizing at the time we are commanded to do so), and the Bible, time and time again, would be justified. So to begin, let me say, I believe the Bible is the inspired Word of God and is fully vindicated in all it claims and it is not dependent solely on the issue of origins.

"Creation science" had become a passion for me almost from day one. Yet all my information concerning the pros and cons of the young earth position, I received from young earth creationists. The weight and number of their arguments were amazing! I collected the books, audios and videos and was just blown away! I was a well equipped "young earther." I believed that God had created the universe, all life forms and Adam and Eve in six literal days less than 10,000 years ago, and I had the SCIENCE to PROVE it too! "Oh! How I would love to see the faces of those atheist scientists when they get a load of this stuff!" "Isn't it true that evolution and the Big Bang were invented just so the immoral can justify their lifestyle?".... How naive!

I discovered, as life went on, my exhilaration would dwindle if creationist material was not fresh in my mind. Whenever I would "bath" myself in their details, I would be renewed and so excited, "God is real, heaven is real, the universe IS young!" There was one doubt however, that would pop into my mind frequently, "how can all those scientists be so wrong?" This single idea would gnaw at me like a toothache so it would be time for a fresh dose of YEC (Young-Earth Creationism), and life would be wonderful again!

One day, being psyched-up for a new fix, I popped in a video I had received from a young man at Church. The tape was a series of debates (about eight), between a famous "young earther" and various evolutionists. After viewing them, I found my jaw on the floor. I truly expected these evolutionists to roll over and die after being presented with this battering of "facts" - they didn't! I was truely numbed and frankly, pretty upset with the manners of this "young earther." I had to come to some serious conclusions that day.


  • Scientists have answers for each point raised, e.g. shrinking sun, polystrate fossils etc., they were not surprised at all!

  • Creation Science is not science. I watched as this creationist fellow was repeatedly being cornered, relying on miracle after miracle to answer their questions. Yes, God can and does perform miracles, but these were miracles that were not even in the Bible - that's not science!

  • I have been a hypocrite! My favorite reasoning with skeptics is to challenge them to examine both sides of an issue before reaching their conclusions. "How can we dialogue fairly if we only have one point of view?" I would ask. But I have NEVER given an evolutionist nor an old earth creationist the opportunity to present their case!

I talked to my pastor (a young-earther), about my new discoveries. He warned me as so many other "creationists" have, that to continue on this path was dangerous and would only lead to me falling away from the faith. At times, that notion seemed true! He asked me, "do you want to end up like "R" (a college student) who now denies the faith after he tried to pursue scientific understanding?" That question hit me hard and weighed heavy on my heart. However, I would soon discover that that line of reasoning was also imaginary. Since then, I have corresponded with several Christians who have traveled the same path as I have. One thing that is always agreed upon is the damage young-earth creationism can do to souls; how many believers they have seen fall away. We have been taught that the Bible demands a young earth interpretation and when the facts of nature become inescapable - our faith becomes shattered! My pastor was wrong, the opposite was the case. If "R"
had been offered the truth from the beginning, he would never have experienced the turmoil he went through. When "R" could no longer deny that the universe was billions of years old, the only option left for him was to deny the Bible. How many others have been disheartened in like manner? 

And that's why I'm here. I had to jump on the other side of the fence. I was afraid! I knew that everyone has their own bias. Would I be able to discern fact from mere opinion? I also knew that I had no choice. So I gambled to dialogue, face to face, with believers and non believers, scientists and theologians and my faith has been strengthened. There were dark times, but in the end, I can say with assurance, we have nothing to fear!

I truly desire to hear from all persuasions on these issues. I have not reached many conclusions as of yet, but I believe with all my heart, that the Bible and science can be harmonized.


BTW, later in an email Ed told that that creationist on the tapes he was "getting his fix from" was Kent Hovind.

Even youth ministries report that they are losing 65% to 80% of the young people raised "in the faith" have left the faith with most of them leaving religion for good -- ("in the faith"; ie, fundamentalists, evangelicals, conservative Christians, and whatever else they call themselves -- even among themselves they have splintered into so many different sects that do not want to associated with any of the others that their name should be called "Legion"). The fastest growing religious population is that of "Nones", for "none of the above", young people who do not want to have anything at all to do with any organized religion.

So then, Faith, your approach fails miserably. It is your approach that results in the churches' next generation running away from those churches as fast as they can. Have you found a tailor/mason yet to fit you for a millstone?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 288 by Faith, posted 09-10-2017 9:46 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 291 by Faith, posted 09-11-2017 12:52 AM dwise1 has taken no action

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 684 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 291 of 899 (819430)
09-11-2017 12:52 AM
Reply to: Message 290 by dwise1
09-11-2017 12:00 AM


Re: Capitulating to "Science"is the real mistake
You seem to have missed my point completely. I said it's not about creationism or Creation Science, it's what Bible believers believe who are not at all involved in creation science or creationist debates, who don't follow Kent Hovind or Ken Ham or any of them. Yet you keep referring to creationists. It doesn't matter what Old Earth science has to say about it, that's what Bible-believers believe. Of course there are Christians who capitulate to the science claims but they are wrong to do so. It's a form of weak-mindedness. The evidence is really not all that compelling, it's more illusion than reality. It takes guts to stick with what the Bible says when it is contradicted by those claims, but that kind of guts is what we have to have. There is no point in arguing what OE science claims after I've said that. Was I really not clear about this?

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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PaulK
Member
Posts: 17167
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 292 of 899 (819431)
09-11-2017 12:59 AM
Reply to: Message 281 by Faith
09-10-2017 6:06 PM


Re: Why Creationists can never be trusted in a decision making postion
quote:

You guys don't know the difference between evidence and proof, as Riverrat keeps trying to get you to recognize

If you want to reduce the bit about Noah taking animals two of every animal that needed saving on to the Ark to a few desperate singletons taking refuge, then I guess riverrat has evidence of that. But if he does that he's already removed the big implausibility from that part of the story anyway. Likewise with the implicit reduction of the Flood to a merely regional event.

As for your claims, the strata and the fossil record could not have been produced by your Flood and show no sign of anything that might be more plausibly be evidence of a global Flood.

quote:

Strata and fossils are evidence for the Flood.

In the same way that bullet wounds are evidence of death by natural causes.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 281 by Faith, posted 09-10-2017 6:06 PM Faith has taken no action

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17167
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 293 of 899 (819432)
09-11-2017 1:23 AM
Reply to: Message 291 by Faith
09-11-2017 12:52 AM


Re: Capitulating to the truth is the real mistake?
quote:

I said it's not about creationism or Creation Science, it's what Bible believers believe who are not at all involved in creation science or creationist debates, who don't follow Kent Hovind or Ken Ham or any of them.

It's unfortunate that people get stuck in ignorance and close their minds. But trying hard to suppress the fact that they are wrong hardly seems a good strategy for dealing with the problem.

quote:

Of course there are Christians who capitulate to the science claims but they are wrong to do so. It's a form of weak-mindedness.

Equating an honest concern for the truth with "weak-mindedness" is just one of the ways you show us that you aren't really Christian.

quote:

The evidence is really not all that compelling, it's more illusion than reality

What a silly falsehood. You haven't managed to dent the evidence yet, nor have the major YEC organisations - and they are well ahead of you.

quote:

It takes guts to stick with what the Bible says when it is contradicted by those claims, but that kind of guts is what we have to have.

But you aren't sticking with the Bible. You are even going against it in some ways.

I guess it does take guts to call yourself a Christian while setting men up above God, twisting and misrepresenting the Bible to prop up your dogma. But it isn't something I can respect.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 291 by Faith, posted 09-11-2017 12:52 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 294 by Faith, posted 09-11-2017 2:36 AM PaulK has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 684 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 294 of 899 (819433)
09-11-2017 2:36 AM
Reply to: Message 293 by PaulK
09-11-2017 1:23 AM


Re: Capitulating to the truth is the real mistake?
I'm telling the truth, I'm fairly representing what Bible believers believe the Bible says. Instead of acting like you know it all wouldn't it be more reasonable for you just to acknowledge that we disagree about these things? Surely you know I'm right about what these particular Christians believe.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 293 by PaulK, posted 09-11-2017 1:23 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
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PaulK
Member
Posts: 17167
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 295 of 899 (819434)
09-11-2017 3:02 AM
Reply to: Message 294 by Faith
09-11-2017 2:36 AM


Re: Capitulating to the truth is the real mistake?
quote:

I'm telling the truth,

No. Even when you aren't lying you are saying things that are untrue, that you could find to be untrue if you were willing to look at it honestly and fairly.

quote:

I'm fairly representing what Bible believers believe the Bible says

And they are wrong about the Bible. It's not hard to find that out. But you resort to your usual tactics of distortion and smears to suppress that fact.

quote:

Instead of acting like you know it all wouldn't it be more reasonable for you just to acknowledge that we disagree about these things?

You mean that I should ignore some truths you don't like? Why should I do that ?

Wouldn't it be better for you to admit that you haven't bothered to properly understand conventional geology rather than dismissing it as nonsense ?

quote:

Surely you know I'm right about what these particular Christians believe.

And surely you know that I didn't say that they didn't believe it. What I did say is that they are wrong to believe it and more wrong to fight against the truth to cling to those beliefs.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 294 by Faith, posted 09-11-2017 2:36 AM Faith has taken no action

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8502
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.5


(3)
Message 296 of 899 (819435)
09-11-2017 3:24 AM
Reply to: Message 294 by Faith
09-11-2017 2:36 AM


Re: Capitulating to the truth is the real mistake?
Faith writes:

I'm telling the truth, I'm fairly representing what Bible believers believe the Bible says. Instead of acting like you know it all wouldn't it be more reasonable for you just to acknowledge that we disagree about these things? Surely you know I'm right about what these particular Christians believe.

All you're saying is "this is what we believe and nothing can change it."

That's ok, we know extreme religious belief does this to people. What I find really fascinating is that you spend so much time and effort trying to show that your mad beliefs are rational when you know that they've been dispoven centuries ago.

You have to defend your belief to yourself using any rationalisation you can find. Almost like you've not got the confidence to simply believe, you also have to find a way to prove to yourself that your belief is right despite all the evidence.

You're a bit of a Thomas aren't you?


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
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jar
Member
Posts: 33913
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 297 of 899 (819438)
09-11-2017 7:20 AM
Reply to: Message 291 by Faith
09-11-2017 12:52 AM


What you are marketing is nothing but lies.
Faith writes:

You seem to have missed my point completely. I said it's not about creationism or Creation Science, it's what Bible believers believe who are not at all involved in creation science or creationist debates, who don't follow Kent Hovind or Ken Ham or any of them.

What you are doing is basing everything on lies; lies about the Bible, lies about God, lies about reality. You market a version of Christianity that has lies as its foundation.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

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Replies to this message:
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Phat
Member
Posts: 15965
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


(1)
Message 298 of 899 (819440)
09-11-2017 7:51 AM
Reply to: Message 297 by jar
09-11-2017 7:20 AM


There are a large percentage of people that believe this
This poll is 3 years old, but the statistics appear to change little from year to year.
In U.S., 42% Believe Creationist View of Human Origins
quote:
PRINCETON, NJ -- More than four in 10 Americans continue to believe that God created humans in their present form 10,000 years ago, a view that has changed little over the past three decades. Half of Americans believe humans evolved, with the majority of these saying God guided the evolutionary process. However, the percentage who say God was not involved is rising.

The poll shows that Faith is not lying. She is describing the beliefs of many of the conservative fundamentalist or conservative charismatic Christians. I know a bunch of them. They argue with me over things much as Faith does here.
here is one such exchange (on facebook) between one of my best friends---a man who works with the homeless and serves in soup kitchens here in Denver:

quote:

I started our conversation by providing the following link: Why Some Conservatives Can’t Accept That Climate Change Is Real

Friend: Climate change is a created catastrophe by HAARP & NASA! But the fact still remains its made up even if they have figured out how to mess with the weather because what's really going on right now is what the bible explains as the birth pains of the earth or the beginning of sorrows in matthew 24

Me: You confirm everything this article says.
Im not doubting the Bible, but I am claiming that many conservatives live in a fairy tale land of alternative "facts"....but there is no way I would ever convince you...Why do you think Hurricane Irma is the biggest Atlantic storm ever recorded? Global warming makes bigger hurricanes...

Friend: No God said it would happen dork, you'd rather read some crap satanic liberals post and believe it but when it comes to the words of Jesus you dont believe.(...)Global warming is what the liberals made up cause they are trying to control the weather to control people and get them to accept the antichrist & nwo and HAARP is trying to make that happen



Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

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 Message 302 by jar, posted 09-11-2017 8:23 AM Phat has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 645 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


(1)
Message 299 of 899 (819442)
09-11-2017 8:02 AM
Reply to: Message 278 by RAZD
09-10-2017 5:37 PM


Re: Can we have a nomination for the most entertaining thread of the month?
The fun keeps pouring in.

"Dance, dance, wherever you may be
I am the lord of the dance, said he
And I lead you all, wherever you may be
And I lead you all in the dance, said he "

Enjoy


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


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This message is a reply to:
 Message 278 by RAZD, posted 09-10-2017 5:37 PM RAZD has seen this message

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 20770
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.1


(3)
Message 300 of 899 (819443)
09-11-2017 8:13 AM
Reply to: Message 288 by Faith
09-10-2017 9:46 PM


Re: Capitulating to "Science"is the real mistake
Faith writes:

What the Church has taught about the timing in Genesis is NOT false,...

Genesis is a hodgpodge of things we know did and didn't happen. Creation? No. Adam and Eve? No. Global flood? No. Exodus? Not likely. Saul and David and Solomon? They were likely real people. The jumble of kings that follow were likely real.

...it's just very hard to defend it in the teeth of the undeserved credibility of today's Old Earth sciences.

There's no such thing as "Old Earch sciences." There's just science which follows the evidence where it leads. The evidence leads to an ancient Earth and nearly as ancient life, both gradually and slowly changing over time.

We have to defend what seems like an absurdity to the world if we are put in that position, there is no way around it, and leave it to God to change hearts and minds.

Sounds like a good idea to leave it to God to change hearts and minds. Lying for Christianity only takes you further from God.

The only foundation you can give Christian children is the truth and the truth contradicts Old Earth Science.

By "foundation" you can only mean a religious foundation where the truths have nothing to do with science. They're religious truths based upon faith, not scientific truths based upon evidence.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 288 by Faith, posted 09-10-2017 9:46 PM Faith has taken no action

  
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