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Author Topic:   True knowledge exists in knowing that you know nothing
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 144 of 154 (819303)
09-09-2017 7:43 AM
Reply to: Message 143 by RAZD
09-07-2017 5:53 PM


Reply from Palaeos
So I heard back from Palaeos (M. Alan Kazlev) by email:
quote:
Well, the only thing really is that the Linnaean ranks and the cladistic system are not interchangeable, as the former often includes paraphyletic taxa as a matter of course. Sure it works here but only because there's very few nodes. But it's no big deal. Not sure how Lecointre and Le Guyader address this issue.
I think there's some uncertainty as to whether Sahelanthropus is closer to the human or the chimp line, or maybe a common ancestor of both; I would just make it an unresolved trichotomy like this
Hominini (tribe)
|--Sahelanthropus
|--Panina (subtribe)
`--Hominina (subtribe)
at least until further fossil remains come up
So that gives me:
Archonta

└─Primates MH
├─Strepsirhini MH
│ ├─Lorisiformes
│ └─Lemuriformes
│ ├─Indrioidea MH
│ └─Lemuroidea
└─┬─Adapiformes X
└─┬─Darwinius X
└─Haplorhini
├─Tarsiiformes MH
└─Anthropoidea MH
├─Platyrrhini ToL
└─Catarrhini
├─Cercopithecidae (baboon)
└─Hominoidae (superfamily)
├─Proconsul X
└─┬─Kenyapithecus X
└─┬─Hylobatidae (gibbons)
└─Hominidae (family)
├─Dryopithecus X
└─┬─Pierolapithecus X
└─┬─Ponginae (family)
│ ╞═Sivapithecus X
│ ├─Gigantopithecus X
│ └─Pongo (orangutans)
└─Homininae (subfamily)
├─Samburupithecus X
├─Nakalipithecus X
└─┬─Gorillini (tribe)
│ ├─Chororapithecus X
│ └─Gorilla (gorillas)
└─Hominini (tribe)
└─┬?─Sahelanthropus X (possible common ancestor)
├─Panina (subtribe)
│ └─┬─Pan troglodytes (chimpanzee)
│ └─Pan paniscus (bonobos)
└─Hominina (subtribe)
├─Orrorin tugenensis

├─Ardipithecus X
└─┬─Australopithecus afarensis X
├?─Paranthropus aethiopicus (if descended from A afarensis) X
├─Australopithecus garhi X

└─┬─Australopithecus africanus X
└─┬─Paranthropus X
│ ├?─Paranthropus aethiopicus X
│ └─┬─Paranthropus robustus X
│ └─Paranthropus boisei X
└─┬─Kenyanthropus X
└─Homo
├─Homo habilis X
╘═╤═Homo erectus X
│ └─Homo floresiensis X
╘═╤═Homo heidelbergensis X
└─┬─Homo neanderthalensis X
└─Homo sapiens
More to come
Enjoy

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This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


(1)
Message 145 of 154 (819309)
09-09-2017 9:18 AM
Reply to: Message 144 by RAZD
09-09-2017 7:43 AM


Fleshing out the other apes
Adding information from wikipedia on the other apes I get
Archonta

└─Primates MH
├─Strepsirhini MH
│ ├─Lorisiformes
│ └─Lemuriformes
│ ├─Indrioidea MH
│ └─Lemuroidea
└─┬─Adapiformes X
└─┬─Darwinius X
└─Haplorhini
├─Tarsiiformes MH
└─Anthropoidea MH
├─Platyrrhini ToL
└─Catarrhini
├─Cercopithecidae
│ └─Papionini (baboons)
│ ├─Papio hamadryas
│ ├─Papio papio
│ ├─Papio anubis
│ ├─Papio cynocephalus
│ └─Papio ursinus
└─Hominoidae (superfamily)

├─Proconsul X
└─┬─Kenyapithecus X
└─┬─Hylobatidae(gibbons)
│ ├─Hylobates
│ │ ├─Hylobates lar
│ │ ├─Hylobates agilis
│ │ ├─Hylobates albibarbis
│ │ ├─Hylobates muelleri
│ │ ├─Hylobates moloch
│ │ ├─Hylobates pileatus
│ │ └─Hylobates klossii
│ ├─Hoolock
│ │ ├─Hoolock hoolock
│ │ ├─Hoolock leuconedys
│ │ └─Hoolock tianxing
│ ├─Nomascus
│ │ ├─Nomascus concolor
│ │ ├─Nomascus gabriellae
│ │ ├─Nomascus leucogenys
│ │ └─Nomascus nasutus
│ └─Symphalangus
│ └─Symphalangus syndactylus
└─Hominidae (family)

├─Dryopithecus X
└─┬─Pierolapithecus X
└─┬─Ponginae (family)
│ ╞═Sivapithecus X
│ ├─Gigantopithecus X
│ └─Pongo (orangutans)
│ ├─Pongo borneo
│ ├─Pongo pygmaeus
│ ├─Pongo abelii
│ └─Pongo hooijeri
└─Homininae (subfamily)

├─Samburupithecus X
├─Nakalipithecus X
└─┬─Gorillini (tribe)
│ ├─Chororapithecus X
│ └─Gorilla (gorillas)
│ ├─Gorilla gorilla
│ └─Gorilla beringei
└─Hominini (tribe)
└─┬?─Sahelanthropus X (possible common ancestor)
├─Panina (subtribe)
│ └─┬─Pan troglodytes (chimpanzee)
│ └─Pan paniscus (bonobos)
└─Hominina (subtribe)
├─Orrorin tugenensis

├─Ardipithecus X
└─┬─Australopithecus afarensis X
├?─Paranthropus aethiopicus (if descended from A afarensis) X
├─Australopithecus garhi X

└─┬─Australopithecus africanus X
└─┬─Paranthropus X
│ ├?─Paranthropus aethiopicus X
│ └─┬─Paranthropus robustus X
│ └─Paranthropus boisei X
└─┬─Kenyanthropus X
└─Homo
├─Homo habilis X
╘═╤═Homo erectus X
│ └─Homo floresiensis X
╘═╤═Homo heidelbergensis X
└─┬─Homo neanderthalensis X
└─Homo sapiens
Enjoy

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


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This message is a reply to:
 Message 144 by RAZD, posted 09-09-2017 7:43 AM RAZD has seen this message but not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 147 of 154 (819332)
09-09-2017 1:03 PM
Reply to: Message 146 by herebedragons
09-09-2017 10:09 AM


all together now ...
... The branch leading to Platyhini and Catarrhini is the Simians or Simiiformes. On your chart it is listed as Anthropoidea.
These names are controversial as to which has precedence. The root Simi is the oldest but the rank name Anthropoidea is older than the name Simiiformes (by 2 years). However, Simiiformes uses the proper rank suffix "-formes" while "-oidea" is supposed to be used for superfamily. So... I personally would favor Simiiformes as the proper name for the rank.
And I had noticed that wiki used Simiiformes instead of Anthropoidea and google has no list for Hominoidae ... so no epifamily in use apparently.
Okay, so now we have:
Archonta

└─Primates MH
└─Strepsirhini MH
├─Lorisiformes
├─Lemuriformes
│ ├─Indrioidea MH
│ └─Lemuroidea
├─Adapiformes X
│ └─Darwinius X
└─Haplorhini
├─Tarsiiformes MH
└─Simiiformes (or Anthropoidea)
├─Platyrrhini ToL
└─Catarrhini
├─Cercopithecidae
│ └─Papionini (baboons)
│ ├─Papio hamadryas
│ ├─Papio papio
│ ├─Papio anubis
│ ├─Papio cynocephalus
│ └─Papio ursinus
└─Hominoidea (superfamily)

├─Proconsul X
└─┬─Kenyapithecus X
└─┬─Hylobatidae(gibbons)
│ ├─Hylobates
│ │ ├─Hylobates lar
│ │ ├─Hylobates agilis
│ │ ├─Hylobates albibarbis
│ │ ├─Hylobates muelleri
│ │ ├─Hylobates moloch
│ │ ├─Hylobates pileatus
│ │ └─Hylobates klossii
│ ├─Hoolock
│ │ ├─Hoolock hoolock
│ │ ├─Hoolock leuconedys
│ │ └─Hoolock tianxing
│ ├─Nomascus
│ │ ├─Nomascus concolor
│ │ ├─Nomascus gabriellae
│ │ ├─Nomascus leucogenys
│ │ └─Nomascus nasutus
│ └─Symphalangus
│ └─Symphalangus syndactylus
└─Hominidae (family)

├─Dryopithecus X
└─┬─Pierolapithecus X
└─┬─Ponginae (family)
│ ╞═Sivapithecus X
│ ├─Gigantopithecus X
│ └─Pongo (orangutans)
│ ├─Pongo borneo
│ ├─Pongo pygmaeus
│ ├─Pongo abelii
│ └─Pongo hooijeri
└─Homininae (subfamily)

├─Samburupithecus X
├─Nakalipithecus X
└─┬─Gorillini (tribe)
│ ├─Chororapithecus X
│ └─Gorilla (gorillas)
│ ├─Gorilla gorilla
│ └─Gorilla beringei
└─Hominini (tribe)
└─┬?─Sahelanthropus X (possible common ancestor)
├─Panina (subtribe)
│ └─┬─Pan troglodytes (chimpanzee)
│ └─Pan paniscus (bonobos)
└─Hominina (subtribe)
├─Orrorin tugenensis

├─Ardipithecus X
└─┬─Australopithecus afarensis X
├?─Paranthropus aethiopicus (if descended from A afarensis) X
├─Australopithecus garhi X

└─┬─Australopithecus africanus X
└─┬─Paranthropus X
│ ├?─Paranthropus aethiopicus X
│ └─┬─Paranthropus robustus X
│ └─Paranthropus boisei X
└─┬─Kenyanthropus X
└─Homo
├─Homo habilis X
╘═╤═Homo erectus X
│ └─Homo floresiensis X
╘═╤═Homo heidelbergensis X
└─┬─Homo neanderthalensis X
└─Homo sapiens
I've requested the book through my local library, they will check the public libraries first and then the RI universities (URI, Brown, Roger Williams).
Enjoy
Edited by RAZD, : update info

we are limited in our ability to understand
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 148 of 154 (819373)
09-10-2017 8:20 AM
Reply to: Message 147 by RAZD
09-09-2017 1:03 PM


Re: all together now ...
Latest communication from Palaeos (Renato Filipe Vidal Santos):
quote:
"You can see the kind of controversies that taxonomists argue about - name precedence and conformation to naming conventions is always a hot issue."
You can say that again, HBD. Though, I do think that, if you're going to "play the game", then you should know the rules and follow them. Though you do have to consider the role of the methodological hangups of paleoanthropology in this: Just a moment... . I hear things have improved somewhat recently.
Tangentially, you might want to look into the literature yourself, RAZD, instead of relying on us to do the interpreting. Can't say I remember any quoting of scientific papers in that discussion, only tertiary references (like Wikipedia). I did notice the posts about geochronology in your FB timeline did include references to the primary literature.
"Paranthropus aethiopicus (if descended from A afarensis)"
If that's the intent then it isn't depicted correctly. Did some editing of my own:

and so ...
Archonta

└─Primates MH
└─Strepsirhini MH
├─Lorisiformes
├─Lemuriformes
│ ├─Indrioidea MH
│ └─Lemuroidea
├─Adapiformes X
│ └─Darwinius X
└─Haplorhini
├─Tarsiiformes MH
└─Simiiformes (or Anthropoidea)
├─Platyrrhini ToL
└─Catarrhini
├─Cercopithecidae
│ └─Papionini (baboons)
│ ├─Papio hamadryas
│ ├─Papio papio
│ ├─Papio anubis
│ ├─Papio cynocephalus
│ └─Papio ursinus
└─Hominoidea (superfamily)

├─Proconsul X
└─┬─Kenyapithecus X
└─┬─Hylobatidae (gibbons)
│ ├─Hylobates
│ │ ├─Hylobates lar
│ │ ├─Hylobates agilis
│ │ ├─Hylobates albibarbis
│ │ ├─Hylobates muelleri
│ │ ├─Hylobates moloch
│ │ ├─Hylobates pileatus
│ │ └─Hylobates klossii
│ ├─Hoolock
│ │ ├─Hoolock hoolock
│ │ ├─Hoolock leuconedys
│ │ └─Hoolock tianxing
│ ├─Nomascus
│ │ ├─Nomascus concolor
│ │ ├─Nomascus gabriellae
│ │ ├─Nomascus leucogenys
│ │ └─Nomascus nasutus
│ └─Symphalangus
│ └─Symphalangus syndactylus
└─Hominidae (family)

├─Dryopithecus X
└─┬─Pierolapithecus X
└─┬─Ponginae (family)
│ ╞═Sivapithecus X
│ ├─Gigantopithecus X
│ └─Pongo (orangutans)
│ ├─Pongo borneo
│ ├─Pongo pygmaeus
│ ├─Pongo abelii
│ └─Pongo hooijeri
└─Homininae (subfamily)

├─Samburupithecus X
├─Nakalipithecus X
└─┬─Gorillini (tribe)
│ ├─Chororapithecus X
│ └─Gorilla (gorillas)
│ ├─Gorilla gorilla
│ └─Gorilla beringei
└─Hominini (tribe)
└─┬?─Sahelanthropus X (possible common ancestor)
├─Panina (subtribe)
│ └─┬─Pan troglodytes (chimpanzee)
│ └─Pan paniscus (bonobos)
└─Hominina (subtribe)
├─Orrorin tugenensis

├─Ardipithecus X
└─┬─Australopithecus afarensis X
│ └?─Paranthropus aethiopicus (if descended from A afarensis) X
├─Australopithecus garhi X

└─┬─Australopithecus africanus X
└─┬─Paranthropus X
│ ├?─Paranthropus aethiopicus X (alternate location)
│ └─┬─Paranthropus robustus X
│ └─Paranthropus boisei X
└─┬─Kenyanthropus X
└─Homo
├─Homo habilis X
╘═╤═Homo erectus X
│ └─Homo floresiensis X
╘═╤═Homo heidelbergensis X
└─┬─Homo neanderthalensis X
└─Homo sapiens
Enjoy

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
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This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 150 by caffeine, posted 09-11-2017 1:08 PM RAZD has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 152 of 154 (819483)
09-11-2017 4:50 PM
Reply to: Message 150 by caffeine
09-11-2017 1:08 PM


Re: all together now ...
... your tree gives the impression baboons are the only Old World monkey. I tried to edit it but for some reason cannot get the branches to line up properly.
Still, if people thought palaeos diagrams are hard to read - see what happens when I draw it!
Nice.
I'll give it a try tomorrow. Is that "Odd nosed group" in the middle?
Enjoy
ps -- my "justification" for using wikipedia rather that primary sources is that I figure it filters the information to present the majority consensus view. Of course that could just be me being lazy ...
pps -- you have to use
 ... 
or [code] ... [/code] to get the txt to line up.
Edited by RAZD, : .
Edited by RAZD, : img

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This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 153 by caffeine, posted 09-12-2017 1:01 PM RAZD has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 154 of 154 (819550)
09-12-2017 2:31 PM
Reply to: Message 153 by caffeine
09-12-2017 1:01 PM


Re: all together now ...
Yes, 'odd-nosed group'; so named because it contains snub-nosed monkeys and the proboscis monkey. I can't find that anyone's ever proposed a formal name for it.
I think Wikipedia is a good source for the consensus on major groups. They often feature the major competing hypotheses where things are not settled.
That's what I figured, especially when backed up by the New World Encyclopedia and other sources.
See new Primate cladogram evolution thread (not promoted yet) started to discuss the process of change in information within science in general and cladograms in particular.
Message 2 is beginning of what you started ...
Now that may fill out from Catarrhini down, but I suspect a lot of branches are still missing.
Enjoy

we are limited in our ability to understand
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