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| Author | Topic: Micro v. Macro Creationist Challenge | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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CRR Member (Idle past 436 days) Posts: 579 From: Australia Joined: |
Supplementary Figure 7: Gene family expansions and contractions. (264 KB) (a) Inferred gene gains (red) and losses (blue) in 8,877 gene families shared by 10 mammalian species are reported for each branch of the tree. (b) Number of gains (red) and losses (blue) per million years for each branch of the tree; human (H), chimpanzee (C), human and chimp (HC), orangutan (O), apes (A), rhesus macaque (M), apes and Old World monkeys (AO), marmoset (Cj), primates (P), mouse (S), rat (R), rodents (N), primates and rodents (PN), dog (D), horse (E), dog and horse (DE), cow (B) and Afrotheria (Af). (I'm pretty sure the colours are swapped between graphs despite what the legend says) Edited by CRR, : "not" deleted from last sentence
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
In order to determine a rate you need a change and a time period over which the change is measured. I understand that there are gains and losses. I don't see the time period in the original graphs, and your message responding to me does not show one either. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) I was thinking as long as I have my hands up … they’re not going to shoot me. This is what I’m thinking — they’re not going to shoot me. Wow, was I wrong. -- Charles Kinsey We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World. Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith
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CRR Member (Idle past 436 days) Posts: 579 From: Australia Joined: |
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herebedragons Member  Posts: 1513 From: Michigan Joined: Member Rating: 10.0
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Here is a good link to the figure Suppl. Fig 7 If we figure an average generation time of 25 years, that would give us 40,000 generations in a million years. So to calculate the number of generations to gain or lose a gene we can divided number of generations by number of mutations per million years.
So... worst case, humans gained, on average, 1 gene every 160 generations, that is every 4,000 years. Orangutans lost a gene every 5,000 years. What's the incredibly high mutation rate you see here? HBD ABE: Here is the original paper that figure is from in case anyone is interested. Common Marmoset genome. It is quite an intense paper, with around 100 authors, a dozen supplemental figures and about 40 supplemental tables. Edited by herebedragons, : added link to original paper Edited by herebedragons, : the colors indicating loss or gain in Suppl Fig 7 were swapped around, the chart above has been corrected to reflect this. Edited by herebedragons, : No reason given. Whoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for... I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca "Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem. Ignorance is a most formidable opponent rivaled only by arrogance; but when the two join forces, one is all but invincible.
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CRR Member (Idle past 436 days) Posts: 579 From: Australia Joined: |
If you look at figure (b) you will notice the blue bar for humans is the highest of the lot, about 5-6 times the average, and to match figure (a) that should be gains. I didn't do any specific calculations to confirm that this but checking now 1439/6 (million years)=240 so that matches gains shown in figure (a).
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herebedragons Member Posts: 1513 From: Michigan Joined: Member Rating: 10.0 |
HBD Whoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for... I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca "Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem. Ignorance is a most formidable opponent rivaled only by arrogance; but when the two join forces, one is all but invincible.
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Taq Member  Posts: 7971 Joined: Member Rating: 4.5
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The grand question is what does all of this have to do with the topic in the opening post?
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herebedragons Member Posts: 1513 From: Michigan Joined: Member Rating: 10.0 |
It's called "muddying the waters" HBD Whoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for... I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca "Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem. Ignorance is a most formidable opponent rivaled only by arrogance; but when the two join forces, one is all but invincible.
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CRR Member (Idle past 436 days) Posts: 579 From: Australia Joined: |
Not much, but these forums often drift off into side issues. I've already said I'm not interested in answering the original topic because it is set up as a no win proposition.
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Tangle Member  Posts: 6950 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 5.1 |
Yes, we've noticed you don't answer or even respond to questions asked of you. If you can't win any of these arguments what does that tell you? Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
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Percy Member  Posts: 18587 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 3.0 |
It was not a "no win proposition." Message 1 posed a simple question: why aren't two SNPs just nothing more than two microevolutionary events? I don't know what you're afraid of. An SNP is the most basic of microevolutionary events. Two SNPs would be two basic microevolutionary events. What is the problem with simply acknowledging this? --Percy
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Taq Member Posts: 7971 Joined: Member Rating: 4.5 |
If you can't point to a single difference between the human and chimp genomes that could not be produced by microevolution, then why do you claim that microevolution can not accumulate into macroevolution and that evolution can not produce new information?
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