Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
1 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,817 Year: 3,074/9,624 Month: 919/1,588 Week: 102/223 Day: 0/13 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Presuppositionalism
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 16 of 142 (790105)
08-25-2016 11:48 AM
Reply to: Message 14 by Phat
08-25-2016 9:08 AM


Re: Evidently Not
Phat writes:
It may well be that proof is elusive without belief and that evidence is never evident without belief.
Of course it's easier to prove something (to yourself) if you already believe it. But to solve a problem what you need is incentive to test your hypothesis. You're less likely to test what you already believe.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by Phat, posted 08-25-2016 9:08 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by Phat, posted 08-25-2016 3:33 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 29 of 142 (790141)
08-26-2016 11:41 AM
Reply to: Message 17 by Phat
08-25-2016 3:33 PM


Re: Evidently Not
Phat writes:
You guys keep demanding evidence and using lack of same to justify your un belief!
That's where you have it wrong. I don't need to "justify" my unbelief. Unbelief is the default condition. I don't need to justify my unbelief in your God any more than you have to justify your unbelief in Odin.
Phat writes:
And if someone feels they dont really need Him anyway, they become much easier convinced--indeed reassured---that God is a myth.
I don't need heroin. Some people have a false need for heroin.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by Phat, posted 08-25-2016 3:33 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by marc9000, posted 08-26-2016 8:31 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 40 of 142 (790195)
08-27-2016 11:46 AM
Reply to: Message 32 by marc9000
08-26-2016 8:31 PM


Re: Evidently Not
marc9000 writes:
This implication of a neutrality in atheism is common in the atheist scientific world....
Who said anything about atheism? I was comparing one god with another.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by marc9000, posted 08-26-2016 8:31 PM marc9000 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by marc9000, posted 08-27-2016 9:41 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 49 of 142 (790255)
08-28-2016 2:08 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by marc9000
08-27-2016 9:41 PM


Re: Evidently Not
marc9000 writes:
You were referring to YOUR UNBELIEF. Looks like atheism to me.
I said that my unbelief in YOUR God is the same as YOUR unbelief in Odin. Atheism would be unbelief in EVERY god.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by marc9000, posted 08-27-2016 9:41 PM marc9000 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 91 by Phat, posted 09-15-2017 12:29 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(2)
Message 50 of 142 (790256)
08-28-2016 2:14 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by Phat
08-27-2016 8:59 AM


Re: If The Shoe Fits...
Phat writes:
Your case only holds water if NO GODS EXIST. This is not a default position.
Of course it is.
The default position is that no Bigfeet exist. You have to provide evidence to the contrary. The default position is that Narnia doesn't exist. You have to provide evidence to the contrary.
The default position is that France doesn't exist. You have to provide evidence to the contrary. Done.
The default position is that no gods exist. You have to provide evidence to the contrary.
And your presuppositions don't count as evidence.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by Phat, posted 08-27-2016 8:59 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 51 by Phat, posted 08-28-2016 3:49 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 59 of 142 (790322)
08-29-2016 11:47 AM
Reply to: Message 51 by Phat
08-28-2016 3:49 PM


Re: If The Shoe Fits...
Phat writes:
Bigfoot was clearly a story invention. Narnia is clearly a place created in a children's story.
God is clearly a story invention. Even if there really is a God, the God you believe in is just a story.
Phat writes:
France clearly exists. People don't have to go there to prove it.
But you can go there. The observation of France is repeatable by anybody. The observation of God is not.
Phat writes:
Evidence is not the gold standard among believers.
It should be.
Phat writes:
The Bible mentions faith/belief as the preferred standard.
Not really. Jesus Himself gave evidence when Thomas asked for it. The notion that faith/belief can take precedence is a scam fostered by priests for their own benefit.
Phat writes:
At best, there are two contrarian positions--each to be given equal consideration.
Nonsense. Belief is never anything but Plan B, a backup plan for when there is not enough evidence.
Evidence IS the gold standard, the default position. Belief is never more than a poor substitute.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by Phat, posted 08-28-2016 3:49 PM Phat has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 60 of 142 (790324)
08-29-2016 11:50 AM
Reply to: Message 54 by Phat
08-28-2016 4:34 PM


Re: Common Sense, Non-Sense, and lack of evidence
Phat writes:
And before the rest of you go trotting out odin, spaghetti monster, and the ridiculous imagined ilk...know that that is entirely different.
No. It's entirely the same. Why would you think it's different?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by Phat, posted 08-28-2016 4:34 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 61 by Phat, posted 08-29-2016 3:51 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 64 of 142 (790450)
08-30-2016 12:01 PM
Reply to: Message 61 by Phat
08-29-2016 3:51 PM


Re: Common Sense, Non-Sense, and lack of evidence
Phat writes:
Because there is One God that is not created nor imagined. He is the uncaused first cause.All of the rest have been created/imagined.
You didn't answer the question. Why do you think your God is different from Odin or the Flying Spaghetti Monster?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by Phat, posted 08-29-2016 3:51 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 65 by Phat, posted 08-30-2016 12:10 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 66 of 142 (790462)
08-30-2016 1:11 PM
Reply to: Message 65 by Phat
08-30-2016 12:10 PM


Re: Common Sense, Non-Sense, and lack of evidence
Phat writes:
Because both of those were inventions of the human mind
You're still not answering the question. What reason is there to think that your God is not an invention of the human mind?
If there is a "prime mover" that created all that is, how do you distinguish one description of it from another? Is it just a coincidence that you were born into a nation where the prevailing description is the "right" one?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by Phat, posted 08-30-2016 12:10 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 67 by Phat, posted 08-30-2016 6:43 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 75 of 142 (790542)
08-31-2016 11:37 AM
Reply to: Message 67 by Phat
08-30-2016 6:43 PM


Re: Common Sense, Non-Sense, and lack of evidence
Phat writes:
Because for one thing the human mind likely would never have invented the God of scripture.
What's the difference between the God in your scriptures and the god in anybody else's scriptures?
Phat writes:
The prevailing description in America is not the right One.
What makes you think there is a "right One"? If there are so many "wrong ones", why is yours different?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by Phat, posted 08-30-2016 6:43 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 77 by Phat, posted 09-01-2016 12:19 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 78 of 142 (790604)
09-01-2016 12:43 PM
Reply to: Message 77 by Phat
09-01-2016 12:19 PM


Re: Common Sense, Non-Sense, and lack of evidence
Phat writes:
What makes me think mine is the right one? Because I believe in an absolute. I dont buy into this idea that what is right for you is on you and what is right for the next guy is up to him.
Who said anything about morality? I asked why you think your god is the right one out of thousands of possibilities. The correct one, the "truth". Morality doesn't enter into it.
Phat writes:
I am not a moral relativist.
I bet you are - but we can discuss that in an appropriate topic.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by Phat, posted 09-01-2016 12:19 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 80 of 142 (790610)
09-01-2016 1:21 PM
Reply to: Message 79 by Phat
09-01-2016 1:16 PM


Re: Common Sense, Non-Sense, and lack of evidence
Phat writes:
Ringo seems to think that evidence should be the "gold standard" in concluding any argument...
I find it bizarre that you would question that. If there is evidence, it IS the gold standard. It's the ONLY standard. How can you deny that?
And if there is no evidence, then one empty opinion is as good as another.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by Phat, posted 09-01-2016 1:16 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 81 by Phat, posted 09-01-2016 3:24 PM ringo has replied
 Message 85 by Phat, posted 09-14-2017 7:23 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 82 of 142 (790647)
09-02-2016 11:40 AM
Reply to: Message 81 by Phat
09-01-2016 3:24 PM


Re: Common Sense, Non-Sense, and lack of evidence
Phat writes:
But after all is said and done, it is only your opinion that can matter or be of any value to you.
Ever hear of democracy? Other people's opinions can definitely have an effect on you. And more to the point, fundies often think they are being persecuted for their religious opinions.
So it might be worth your while to have a look at reality instead of just wrapping yourself in your own opinions.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by Phat, posted 09-01-2016 3:24 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 92 of 142 (819965)
09-15-2017 12:37 PM
Reply to: Message 85 by Phat
09-14-2017 7:23 PM


Re: Common Sense, Non-Sense, and lack of evidence
Phat writes:
I would argue that people who stand for the faith rather than waffle on it like an armchair quarterback are themselves evidence of perseverance at least.
What does perseverance indicate? If a Muslim stands by his faith, what does that indicate about the value of his faith? Muslims live through hurricanes. Muslims are persecuted (see Myanmar).
If you have evidence of perseverance, so what?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 85 by Phat, posted 09-14-2017 7:23 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 96 by Phat, posted 09-15-2017 12:47 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 93 of 142 (819967)
09-15-2017 12:42 PM
Reply to: Message 90 by Phat
09-15-2017 12:14 PM


Re: Common Sense, Non-Sense, and lack of evidence
Phat writes:
Only because the hypothetical god does not behave as you determine He should behave.
Water behaves as we determine it should behave. If it doesn't behave that way, it isn't water.
Phat writes:
So at best the evidence is subjective.
Evidence can not be subjective. The interpretation of the evidence can be subjective - but if it is, it is inherently inferior to an objective interpretation.
Phat writes:
I maintain that God allows the hurricane simply because micromanaging everything begets a race of couch potato people with no character development.
Why does God have to kill a bunch of people to develop the character of the survivors? Imagine how character-filled our children would be if we killed one in every family.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by Phat, posted 09-15-2017 12:14 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 101 by Phat, posted 09-15-2017 1:00 PM ringo has replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024