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Author Topic:   Evidence of the flood
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 721 of 899 (820081)
09-16-2017 11:36 AM
Reply to: Message 717 by JonF
09-16-2017 11:25 AM


Re: the usual miserable finale

This message is a reply to:
 Message 717 by JonF, posted 09-16-2017 11:25 AM JonF has replied

Replies to this message:
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jar
Member (Idle past 395 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 722 of 899 (820082)
09-16-2017 11:37 AM
Reply to: Message 719 by Faith
09-16-2017 11:28 AM


Re: the usual miserable finale
LOL
Sorry but that is not the answer to the question I asked.
What is the process to liquefy limestone.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 719 by Faith, posted 09-16-2017 11:28 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 723 by Faith, posted 09-16-2017 11:41 AM jar has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 723 of 899 (820084)
09-16-2017 11:41 AM
Reply to: Message 722 by jar
09-16-2017 11:37 AM


Re: the usual miserable finale
Acidic water if I recall correctly.
ABE: Yes. From the same Wikipedia article:
The development of karst occurs whenever acidic water starts to break down the surface of bedrock near its cracks, or bedding planes. As the bedrock (typically limestone or dolostone) continues to degrade, its cracks tend to get bigger. As time goes on, these fractures will become wider, and eventually a drainage system of some sort may start to form underneath. If this underground drainage system does form, it will speed up the development of karst formations there because more water will be able to flow through the region, giving it more erosive power
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 724 of 899 (820085)
09-16-2017 11:43 AM
Reply to: Message 720 by Faith
09-16-2017 11:31 AM


Re: the usual miserable finale
quote:
I'm remembering a different picture. But this one tpo just looks like a smooth-cut channel filled with limestone.
It obviously isn't smooth.
quote:
A riverbed would have a thick bed of pebbles and stones at the bottom, this is just a smooth surface.
Maybe, if it was flowing fast enough to carry pebbles, not that I think you can tell for sure from that photo anyway. (Unfortunately the description doesn't give a lot of detail)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 720 by Faith, posted 09-16-2017 11:31 AM Faith has replied

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herebedragons
Member (Idle past 858 days)
Posts: 1517
From: Michigan
Joined: 11-22-2009


Message 725 of 899 (820086)
09-16-2017 11:44 AM
Reply to: Message 713 by Faith
09-16-2017 11:10 AM


Re: the usual miserable finale
The smooth half-moon shape of the channel.
It seems patently obvious to me that 1/2 moon shape indicates formation at the surface and a more rounded or football shape would indicate subsurface formation. Just look at features that we have today. A surface river forms a channel with a rounded bottom but the upper surface is flat since there is nothing but air above it.
Cross section of a typical river.
While a channel forming underground is more rounded. Why wouldn't the material above the channel collapse into the newly formed channel since that material was still wet. Or was the upper material dry and the lower material wet.
Here is more like we would expect an underground flow to look like:
Now, why would it be obvious to me, or any of us, that the channels in the Muav were carved by subsurface flows?
HBD

Whoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for... I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca
"Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem.
Ignorance is a most formidable opponent rivaled only by arrogance; but when the two join forces, one is all but invincible.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 713 by Faith, posted 09-16-2017 11:10 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 729 by Faith, posted 09-16-2017 11:54 AM herebedragons has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22394
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 726 of 899 (820087)
09-16-2017 11:45 AM
Reply to: Message 706 by Faith
09-16-2017 10:39 AM


Re: the usual miserable finale
Faith writes:
The Muav channels were clearly formed after the strata were all in place by liquefied limestone running between the layers.
This is, once again, a bald declaration with no supporting evidence. What is it that you see in the evidence that makes it "clear" that they were "formed after the strata were all in place"? By the way, liquified limestone is not a naturally occurring geological compound but is something you can buy online:
quote:
Liquid limestone is a mixture of concrete, crushed limestone and other additives that is used in the construction of driveways, pool surrounds, and patios.
Actual limestone does not liquify. If you heat it then it "decomposes to atmospheric carbon dioxide and CaO (calcium oxide, or "quick lime," a powder)." See Can limestone become a liquid?
What you're probably talking about is limestone in suspension in water. What are you looking at in the evidence that tells you that limestone saturated water caused the topology of the Mauv Limestone?
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 706 by Faith, posted 09-16-2017 10:39 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 731 by Faith, posted 09-16-2017 12:00 PM Percy has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 727 of 899 (820088)
09-16-2017 11:46 AM
Reply to: Message 724 by PaulK
09-16-2017 11:43 AM


Re: the usual miserable finale
Riverbeds are usually lined with pebbles and rocks in my personal experience. The tight-looking contact between the different limestones in that picture has none.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 732 by herebedragons, posted 09-16-2017 12:10 PM Faith has replied
 Message 747 by JonF, posted 09-16-2017 12:53 PM Faith has replied

  
herebedragons
Member (Idle past 858 days)
Posts: 1517
From: Michigan
Joined: 11-22-2009


Message 728 of 899 (820090)
09-16-2017 11:53 AM
Reply to: Message 716 by Faith
09-16-2017 11:24 AM


Re: the usual miserable finale
The bottom image shows where the fungal combs were found in that location. In the upper section they were found within the roots.
Paleosols were probably just organically rich soils that were compressed in the laying down of the strata.
Preserved intact through a raging flood? With root systems and fungal combs in place? Rather implausible I would say.
Those pictures don't help I'm afraid. I can't picture how the items were found in situ from such displays.
That's just simple denial and unwillingness to consider evidence. Good show.
HBD

Whoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for... I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca
"Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem.
Ignorance is a most formidable opponent rivaled only by arrogance; but when the two join forces, one is all but invincible.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 716 by Faith, posted 09-16-2017 11:24 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 730 by Faith, posted 09-16-2017 11:55 AM herebedragons has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 729 of 899 (820091)
09-16-2017 11:54 AM
Reply to: Message 725 by herebedragons
09-16-2017 11:44 AM


Re: the usual miserable finale
The relative straightness of the contact between it and the redwall suggests the dissolution occurred after the strata were already there, or it should have been the redwall that filled in the channel rather than the different Temple Butte limestone. Acid water cut the channel in the Muav through which a liquefied Temple Butte limestone flowed. It's all different limestones, and there are no pebbles in your riverbed.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 725 by herebedragons, posted 09-16-2017 11:44 AM herebedragons has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 734 by herebedragons, posted 09-16-2017 12:18 PM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 730 of 899 (820092)
09-16-2017 11:55 AM
Reply to: Message 728 by herebedragons
09-16-2017 11:53 AM


Re: the usual miserable finale
Not denial at all. I simply have no idea what you are talking about and the pictures don't help.
Preserved intact through a raging flood? With root systems and fungal combs in place? Rather implausible I would say.
What's with this "raging" bit? The only raging part would have been at the very beginning and then it most likely quieted down as the water rose over the land. And I find nothing implausible in its having been dislodged with its roots intact. It probably floated pretty well too before getting buried in the sediments.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 728 by herebedragons, posted 09-16-2017 11:53 AM herebedragons has replied

Replies to this message:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 731 of 899 (820093)
09-16-2017 12:00 PM
Reply to: Message 726 by Percy
09-16-2017 11:45 AM


Re: the usual miserable finale
See Message 719 and subsequent reference to the Wikipedia article.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 726 by Percy, posted 09-16-2017 11:45 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
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herebedragons
Member (Idle past 858 days)
Posts: 1517
From: Michigan
Joined: 11-22-2009


(1)
Message 732 of 899 (820094)
09-16-2017 12:10 PM
Reply to: Message 727 by Faith
09-16-2017 11:46 AM


Re: the usual miserable finale
Have you examined the contact between the Temple Butte Fm and the Muav Limestone to determine if there are indeed no pebbles and stones there? No, you haven't.
Others have and they determined that they were in fact stream beds. You can't make out a clear image I posted of paleosols and in situ roots, but you can tell from a picture taken from probably 100+ yards away that there is no stream bed debris in the bottom of those channels that are cut into the Muav. Come on, your just making stuff up.
HBD
Edited by herebedragons, : No reason given.

Whoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for... I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca
"Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem.
Ignorance is a most formidable opponent rivaled only by arrogance; but when the two join forces, one is all but invincible.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 727 by Faith, posted 09-16-2017 11:46 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 733 by Faith, posted 09-16-2017 12:18 PM herebedragons has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 733 of 899 (820096)
09-16-2017 12:18 PM
Reply to: Message 732 by herebedragons
09-16-2017 12:10 PM


Re: the usual miserable finale
Yeah, well that's the way it is. I see what I see. Accusing me of foul motives is pretty cheap debate form.
The "others" who determined that the channels were stream beds couldn't see it any other way because they assume that it was originally on the surface because of their belief in OE theory. Paradigm influence.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 732 by herebedragons, posted 09-16-2017 12:10 PM herebedragons has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 735 by herebedragons, posted 09-16-2017 12:20 PM Faith has replied
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herebedragons
Member (Idle past 858 days)
Posts: 1517
From: Michigan
Joined: 11-22-2009


Message 734 of 899 (820097)
09-16-2017 12:18 PM
Reply to: Message 729 by Faith
09-16-2017 11:54 AM


Re: the usual miserable finale
So how did the Temple Butte limestone flow between the Redwall and the Muav in this image:
(Note: The left side appears to be closer in the foreground.)
???

Whoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for... I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca
"Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem.
Ignorance is a most formidable opponent rivaled only by arrogance; but when the two join forces, one is all but invincible.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 729 by Faith, posted 09-16-2017 11:54 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 736 by Faith, posted 09-16-2017 12:24 PM herebedragons has replied

  
herebedragons
Member (Idle past 858 days)
Posts: 1517
From: Michigan
Joined: 11-22-2009


(1)
Message 735 of 899 (820098)
09-16-2017 12:20 PM
Reply to: Message 733 by Faith
09-16-2017 12:18 PM


Re: the usual miserable finale
Accusing me of foul motives is pretty cheap debate form.
I didn't address your motives. I am questioning your ability to make rational conclusions about images you see on your computer screen.
ABE: Ignoring evidence presented to you while going on and on about how no one has ever rebutted your assertions is what is bad debate form.
ABE2:
The "others" who determined that the channels were stream beds couldn't see it any other way because they assume that it was originally on the surface because of their belief in OE theory. Paradigm influence.
Now who is using the motivations of others as a debate tactic? Hint: it's YOU!
HBD
Edited by herebedragons, : No reason given.
Edited by herebedragons, : No reason given.

Whoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for... I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca
"Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem.
Ignorance is a most formidable opponent rivaled only by arrogance; but when the two join forces, one is all but invincible.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 733 by Faith, posted 09-16-2017 12:18 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 737 by Faith, posted 09-16-2017 12:26 PM herebedragons has replied

  
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