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Author Topic:   Evidence of the flood
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 736 of 899 (820100)
09-16-2017 12:24 PM
Reply to: Message 734 by herebedragons
09-16-2017 12:18 PM


Re: the usual miserable finale
That looks like the Temple Butte limestone was originally laid down as a layer between the Redwall and the Muav when all of them were wet. Then of course there was a big vertical shift. Earthquake?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 734 by herebedragons, posted 09-16-2017 12:18 PM herebedragons has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 739 by herebedragons, posted 09-16-2017 12:31 PM Faith has replied
 Message 744 by herebedragons, posted 09-16-2017 12:44 PM Faith has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 737 of 899 (820101)
09-16-2017 12:26 PM
Reply to: Message 735 by herebedragons
09-16-2017 12:20 PM


Re: the usual miserable finale
Paradigm influence is not about motives, it's about conditioned seeing.
I'm not ignoring anything you've said. I don't know what you think you've proved.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 735 by herebedragons, posted 09-16-2017 12:20 PM herebedragons has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 740 by herebedragons, posted 09-16-2017 12:35 PM Faith has replied

  
herebedragons
Member (Idle past 858 days)
Posts: 1517
From: Michigan
Joined: 11-22-2009


Message 738 of 899 (820103)
09-16-2017 12:29 PM
Reply to: Message 730 by Faith
09-16-2017 11:55 AM


Re: the usual miserable finale
What's with this "raging" bit? The only raging part would have been at the very beginning and then it most likely quieted down as the water rose over the land.
Oh that's right. I meant the "gentle" flood. That quietly carried huge chunks of sediment and paleosol blocks around and gently deposited them where it willed and covered them carefully with gently deposited sediments.
Wouldn't it have taken a tremendous amount of energy to strip all the land away and suspend all those sediments so as to have enough material to deposit the layers of the GC miles think? How could large sections of paleosols survive that?
Which way do you want it raging or gentle?
HBD

Whoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for... I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca
"Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem.
Ignorance is a most formidable opponent rivaled only by arrogance; but when the two join forces, one is all but invincible.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 730 by Faith, posted 09-16-2017 11:55 AM Faith has not replied

  
herebedragons
Member (Idle past 858 days)
Posts: 1517
From: Michigan
Joined: 11-22-2009


Message 739 of 899 (820104)
09-16-2017 12:31 PM
Reply to: Message 736 by Faith
09-16-2017 12:24 PM


Re: the usual miserable finale
That looks like the Temple Butte limestone was originally laid down as a layer between the Redwall and the Muav when all of them were wet.
No... the temple Butte flowed between the Redwall and the Muav and formed channels, remember? We were just discussing that not even 10 minutes ago.
HBD

Whoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for... I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca
"Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem.
Ignorance is a most formidable opponent rivaled only by arrogance; but when the two join forces, one is all but invincible.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 736 by Faith, posted 09-16-2017 12:24 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 741 by Faith, posted 09-16-2017 12:39 PM herebedragons has replied

  
herebedragons
Member (Idle past 858 days)
Posts: 1517
From: Michigan
Joined: 11-22-2009


Message 740 of 899 (820105)
09-16-2017 12:35 PM
Reply to: Message 737 by Faith
09-16-2017 12:26 PM


Re: the usual miserable finale
Paradigm influence is not about motives, it's about conditioned seeing.
Well, I called you on your "conditional seeing" and you accused me of attacking your motives, so... what is it?
HBD

Whoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for... I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca
"Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem.
Ignorance is a most formidable opponent rivaled only by arrogance; but when the two join forces, one is all but invincible.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 737 by Faith, posted 09-16-2017 12:26 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 742 by Faith, posted 09-16-2017 12:41 PM herebedragons has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 741 of 899 (820106)
09-16-2017 12:39 PM
Reply to: Message 739 by herebedragons
09-16-2017 12:31 PM


Re: the usual miserable finale
that's what happened at the location where there is the channel. Why should it have happened anywhere else? The Temple Butte is not overflowing the channel, it is confined to the channel. Something cut the channel after the Muav and Redwall were already there, evidenced by the relatively straight contact between the Redwall and the Temple Butte. Then it was filled by the Temple Butte. That's how it looks to me.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 739 by herebedragons, posted 09-16-2017 12:31 PM herebedragons has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 749 by herebedragons, posted 09-16-2017 1:07 PM Faith has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 742 of 899 (820107)
09-16-2017 12:41 PM
Reply to: Message 740 by herebedragons
09-16-2017 12:35 PM


Re: the usual miserable finale
You said I was "making stuff up." That's not just seeing things differently.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 740 by herebedragons, posted 09-16-2017 12:35 PM herebedragons has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 746 by herebedragons, posted 09-16-2017 12:52 PM Faith has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 743 of 899 (820108)
09-16-2017 12:43 PM
Reply to: Message 698 by Faith
09-16-2017 3:19 AM


The Premise of a Creationist
Percy,to Faith writes:
No one misrepresents what you say, particularly Percy. We compose detailed rebuttals of your ideas which you then ignore. You just responded to a 300 word message of rebuttal with a one liner. How do you expect to overcome any rebuttals with rubbish like that? You're in essence just letting the rebuttals stand, and then you have the chutzpah to complain about how no one gives your ideas any credence. You have to defend your ideas, not repeat them from scratch over and over again like a parrot.
Percy does have a point. The effort by many members to get you to discus your evidence with them is a lot of work on their part.
Your explanations differ from their explanations, but unlike traditional scientists, you dont provide the same type of evidence that they do.
Many laymen would be impressed with your ability to provide explanations that are not simply copy pasted from a book, but then again most laymen are in no need of evidence but only of persuasion from a person whom they can trust.
To its credit, EvC has stated why it is that they dont trust you. I am not at the point that I dont trust you but I am again going to ask how you arrive at the conclusions that you do.
Is it because you believe that a global flood must have happened and are attempting to provide an explanation why it must have happened?
Does it frustrate you that nobody considers the premise as a valid approach to science?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 698 by Faith, posted 09-16-2017 3:19 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 748 by Faith, posted 09-16-2017 1:02 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
herebedragons
Member (Idle past 858 days)
Posts: 1517
From: Michigan
Joined: 11-22-2009


Message 744 of 899 (820109)
09-16-2017 12:44 PM
Reply to: Message 736 by Faith
09-16-2017 12:24 PM


Re: the usual miserable finale
Then of course there was a big vertical shift. Earthquake?
I noted that the section on the left appears to be closer to the viewer, so a vertical shift is not necessarily evident in this image. What IS relevant is the thickness of the Temple Butte in this image compared to the previous image where it was only in the channel.
BTW, do you know what the Temple Butte formation is composed of? Limestone?
Here is a description from
quote:
Temple Butte Formation (Upper and Middle Devonian)Purple, reddish-purple, darkgray, and light-gray, ledge-forming dolomite, sandy dolomite, sandstone, mudstone, and limestone as defined by Beus (1990). Purple, reddish-purple, and lightgray, fine- to coarse-grained, thin- to medium-bedded, ripple-laminated ledges of mudstone, sandstone, dolomite, and conglomerate fill channels eroded into the underlying Cambrian strata; channels are as much as 100 ft (30 m) deep in eastern half of map area, and about 40 ft (12 m) deep in western half of map area. Channel deposits are overlain by dark-gray to olive-gray, medium- to thick-bedded dolomite, sandy dolomite, limestone, and sandstone. Unit as a whole forms sequence of dark-gray ledges. Unconformity at base of unit represents major stratigraphic break in Paleozoic rock record in the Grand Canyon, spanning part of Late Cambrian, all of Ordovician and Silurian, and most of Early and Middle Devonian time, about 100 million years. Dark-gray Devonian rocks are distinguished from underlying light-gray Cambrian rocks by color contrast. Unit thickens from about 50 ft (15 m) in eastern half of map area to as much as 275 ft (84 m) in western half of map area, excluding local channel deposit thickness.
And you conclude that the Temple Butte limestone liquefied and flowed between the Redwall and the Muav and formed channels?
I guess maybe you can see why that might not be so obvious to the rest of us.
HBD

Whoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for... I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca
"Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem.
Ignorance is a most formidable opponent rivaled only by arrogance; but when the two join forces, one is all but invincible.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 736 by Faith, posted 09-16-2017 12:24 PM Faith has not replied

  
JonF
Member (Idle past 168 days)
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 745 of 899 (820110)
09-16-2017 12:45 PM
Reply to: Message 721 by Faith
09-16-2017 11:36 AM


Re: the usual miserable finale
doesn't mention liquid limestone.
There is such a thing as lime dissolved in water. It's not limestone, And it takes a long long time to precipitate limestone out of water containing lime.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 721 by Faith, posted 09-16-2017 11:36 AM Faith has not replied

  
herebedragons
Member (Idle past 858 days)
Posts: 1517
From: Michigan
Joined: 11-22-2009


(1)
Message 746 of 899 (820111)
09-16-2017 12:52 PM
Reply to: Message 742 by Faith
09-16-2017 12:41 PM


Re: the usual miserable finale
Faith, there is no way you can see those pictures clear enough to tell if there is stream bed debris at the bottom of those channels. And yet you feel as though you can draw that conclusion anyway. That IS making stuff up.
Accusing others (who have actually examined the structures close up and in detail) of observing debris at the bottom of those formations and describing them as stream channels simply because they are motivated to do so by their personal paradigm is also making stuff up.
HBD

Whoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for... I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca
"Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem.
Ignorance is a most formidable opponent rivaled only by arrogance; but when the two join forces, one is all but invincible.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 742 by Faith, posted 09-16-2017 12:41 PM Faith has not replied

  
JonF
Member (Idle past 168 days)
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 747 of 899 (820112)
09-16-2017 12:53 PM
Reply to: Message 727 by Faith
09-16-2017 11:46 AM


Re: the usual miserable finale
Your personal experience is inadequate. some have pebbles and rocks, some don't (such as a muddy slow flowing river like the Mississippi).
Here are some dried riverbeds (the cracks formed in the drying):

This message is a reply to:
 Message 727 by Faith, posted 09-16-2017 11:46 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 750 by Faith, posted 09-16-2017 1:09 PM JonF has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


(1)
Message 748 of 899 (820113)
09-16-2017 1:02 PM
Reply to: Message 743 by Phat
09-16-2017 12:43 PM


Re: The Premise of a Creationist
This argument is very old at EvC. All of it has been rehashed many times. All of it. There is nothing new in any of it that I've seen. Yes I get very impatient and the more this same argument comes up the more impatient I get. I always have multiple people against me refusing to acknowledge anything reasonable I say and in fact denying that I ever say anything reasonable, which is, excuse me, stupid because I know it's reasonable and it doesn't exactly inspire me to treat anything they say with any respect. I'm sure my personality is a problem since I do have a temper and I do get impatient and I don't always remember to pray for patience. I did not want to get into this discussion on this thread at all, but read the sequence of posts and you'll see how I got dragged into it, and I'm still not completely in it. the Flood is the only reasonable explanation for the phenomena I'm talking about, I'm not "attempting to provide an explanation" because I am totally convinced it is the explanation and don't have to "attempt" anything about it. I believe the Grand Staircase/Grand Canyon cross section PROVES the Flood and I've pointed to all the features that do that. When I keep getting back supposed "rebuttals" that just restate the conventional interpretation and never ever ever acknowledge the points I've made, even though I understand why that is so in this Old Earth/Evolutionist stronghold I have less and less patience with it. Yes I am totally absolutely convinced of my own argument, yes I think the conventional position is totally untenable. Yes I don't take time to read through some posts because nobody ever acknowledges the points I've been making. I need another occupation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 743 by Phat, posted 09-16-2017 12:43 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 754 by herebedragons, posted 09-16-2017 1:27 PM Faith has replied
 Message 763 by PaulK, posted 09-16-2017 1:56 PM Faith has replied

  
herebedragons
Member (Idle past 858 days)
Posts: 1517
From: Michigan
Joined: 11-22-2009


Message 749 of 899 (820114)
09-16-2017 1:07 PM
Reply to: Message 741 by Faith
09-16-2017 12:39 PM


Re: the usual miserable finale
that's what happened at the location where there is the channel. Why should it have happened anywhere else?
There are also channels cut into the Muav and filled with Temple Butte limestone in the western section.
To be clear:
This image is from the eastern part of the canyon where there is almost no Temple Butte formation above the Muav
and this image is from the western part of the canyon where there is almost 300 feet of Temple Butte formation above the Muav.
If it flowed between the two layers at the eastern end, it would have had to flow between the two layers in the western end as well. How could it be otherwise?
HBD

Whoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for... I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca
"Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem.
Ignorance is a most formidable opponent rivaled only by arrogance; but when the two join forces, one is all but invincible.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 741 by Faith, posted 09-16-2017 12:39 PM Faith has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 750 of 899 (820115)
09-16-2017 1:09 PM
Reply to: Message 747 by JonF
09-16-2017 12:53 PM


Re: the usual miserable finale
Is a dry riverbed the sort of riverbed that is imputed to the Temple Butte channel or are you just reaching for any old anything to get rid of the pebbles argument?
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 747 by JonF, posted 09-16-2017 12:53 PM JonF has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 755 by herebedragons, posted 09-16-2017 1:29 PM Faith has replied
 Message 765 by JonF, posted 09-16-2017 2:12 PM Faith has replied
 Message 776 by Coragyps, posted 09-16-2017 3:01 PM Faith has not replied

  
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