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Author Topic:   Can You define God?
Phat
Member
Posts: 18456
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 298 of 318 (676488)
10-23-2012 10:09 AM
Reply to: Message 295 by jar
10-22-2012 3:26 PM


Re: What Is GOD?
jar writes:
I would place Allah as well as the various iterations of the Hebrew Yahweh as Gods, something almost certain not to exist. Again, we know the source for these characters and can watch the evolution of the descriptions over time. But both Allah and Yahweh are useful creations, attempts to describe what really cannot be described.
If so, could our argument be GOD, if GOD exists versus GODS if GODS exist?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 295 by jar, posted 10-22-2012 3:26 PM jar has replied

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 Message 300 by jar, posted 10-23-2012 10:19 AM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18456
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 299 of 318 (676489)
10-23-2012 10:16 AM
Reply to: Message 297 by jar
10-22-2012 4:04 PM


Will the real Slim Shady Please Stand Up
And on Demons, as I have said, the term is so vague I can not have any real position. Because the term is so vague it has no real meaning. I have a very high confidence level though that demons do not exist.
Revelation 1:8 writes:
I am the Alpha and the Omega, says the Lord God, who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty.
Revelation 17:8 writes:
"The Beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the Bottomless Pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the Earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the Beast that was, and is not, and yet is"
Thus, it is conceivable that GOD (If GOD exists) IS, whereas the Beast(demons?) Is Not.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 297 by jar, posted 10-22-2012 4:04 PM jar has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18456
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 303 of 318 (718311)
02-06-2014 12:44 AM
Reply to: Message 213 by Straggler
10-12-2012 10:29 AM


Re: HOLD THE PRESS
Straggler writes:
How can you believe in the existence of something without having any idea what it is?
And is there any reason at all to give this GOD concept any more merit, consideration or credence than any other "unknowable" entity I can conceive of or is your reason for doing so entirely personal irrational belief?
I think I understand this argument.
jar,in the previous post writes:
I chose the term GOD since that is a term many people are already familiar with but in all caps to differentiate between that which really is supernatural and those things we just label as supernatural. But since I can't even describe or define or show or test or verify anything that really is supernatural, I cannot define, describe, show, test or verify such a critter.
If there really is anything that is supernatural I can say some things about what it is not but nothing about what it is.
I have a very high degree of confidence that it would be unlike anything I can experience in this natural world as a human; it would not be just another human, even a really powerful human, it would not be male or female or any gender we could assign. It would not be material, not live on Mount Olympus, not be human centric, not simply reflect human emotions, morality, customs, behaviors ...
I believe such a GOD exists, but it is simply a personal belief.
Lets say that jar is, in fact, proposing that he believes that GOD exists and is beyond definition.
You claim that this belief should be given no more merit,consideration, or credence than anything you could conceive of. His point, however, is that God by definition is beyond conception. Everyone can share that belief. There really isn't an argument...except whether to choose to believe or not.
Your thought process demands that a concept be well defined so as to be accepted or refuted. His reply is that the concept may be real and if so...an actuality...beyond acceptance or refutation.
At this point you are of course free to not share the belief.
What you cant do is to demand that jars concept be defined well enough so that you can refute it. It simply can't be done.
At best you can claim that the argument fails due to either logical inconsistency or illogical claims and assertions.
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 213 by Straggler, posted 10-12-2012 10:29 AM Straggler has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18456
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 304 of 318 (819950)
09-15-2017 11:56 AM
Reply to: Message 259 by Straggler
10-18-2012 8:36 AM


Re: BLOP is hubbuluteral
Straggler writes:
It doesn't even make any sense to ask if X exists unless X is defined as something which can exist. So I ask you - Does BLOP exist?
If you choose to believe that Blop exists, He, She or It most certainly could exist within the context of your personal belief. Perhaps not in mine, however. And visa versa

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 259 by Straggler, posted 10-18-2012 8:36 AM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 312 by Straggler, posted 09-17-2017 1:15 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18456
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 305 of 318 (819951)
09-15-2017 12:04 PM
Reply to: Message 302 by jar
10-23-2012 6:06 PM


Re: Summary
jar writes:
Look again at the oft-quoted definition of a God:
quote:
1. (Christianity / Ecclesiastical Terms) a supernatural being, who is worshipped as the controller of some part of the universe or some aspect of life in the world or is the personification of some force Related adj divine
Again, what we see here is that word supernatural; an assertion that some people or group asserted that a supernatural being exists and is worshiped and that controls something.
That tells us about the people, that the group specified worships and assigns attributes, but tells us nothing about the object itself other than (as we see in the definition of supernatural above) that it is "unexplainable by natural law or phenomena"; an unknown.
It appears we are still no closer to being able to say what "supernatural" is, but we can perhaps say that some things are NOT supernatural.
So when you say that I create the God that I want, would you argue that it is impossible for me to describe the GOD Who may or may not exist, even if I claim that Jesus is GOD?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 302 by jar, posted 10-23-2012 6:06 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 306 by jar, posted 09-15-2017 12:24 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18456
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 307 of 318 (819964)
09-15-2017 12:34 PM
Reply to: Message 306 by jar
09-15-2017 12:24 PM


Re: Summary
jar writes:
I would be more likely to point out that your claim has no real meaning in any way related to the question of defining God.
The main reason I brought this thread back is after reading your exchange with Straggler regarding ones individual right to believe in GOD versus the argument that GOD is a concept without a definition. To me, it all seemed to be about framing the definition.
You always ask me what do I mean. I say that Jesus is alive. You reply with "what does that even mean?"
What would you expect me to say...except that it is a belief that I have?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 306 by jar, posted 09-15-2017 12:24 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 308 by jar, posted 09-15-2017 1:09 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18456
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 309 of 318 (819983)
09-15-2017 1:22 PM
Reply to: Message 308 by jar
09-15-2017 1:09 PM


What The Story Says
jar writes:
The question is "What does Jesus is alive even mean?"
Depends how you interpret the story.
For some it means that GOD had a son who took on the sins of the world and was raised from the dead.
For others it means that surviving death is possible.
Perhaps for others it means that we too can be alive and overcome death. (realistically or metaphorically)

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 308 by jar, posted 09-15-2017 1:09 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 310 by jar, posted 09-15-2017 1:39 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18456
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 311 of 318 (819992)
09-15-2017 1:42 PM
Reply to: Message 310 by jar
09-15-2017 1:39 PM


Re: What The Story Says
What does it mean to be alive?
It means that I can move, think, and do. It means that I am self-aware as well as aware of others.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 310 by jar, posted 09-15-2017 1:39 PM jar has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 315 by Rrhain, posted 09-17-2017 4:04 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18456
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 313 of 318 (820212)
09-17-2017 3:28 PM
Reply to: Message 312 by Straggler
09-17-2017 1:15 PM


Re: BLOP is hubbuluteral
We must first answer whether a definition must describe something factual and/or possible or whether a definition can include belief and a hypothetical. jar seems to think that he is free to believe that GOD could exist and does not expect us to agree. You, on the other hand, attempt to pin him down into saying that GOD is his own definition of a character that facts show does not exist. You thus attempt to frame the argument that GOD must be jars internal definition and not the framework for the argument. jar insists that he has a right to define the character or concept and thus attempts to make this character the frame of the argument.
So in reply to your question, I would respond that the concepts you mention originate in your mind and not mine. Hypothetically I could share the concept with you of a Great God while not so much leprechauns nor unicorns.
My personal definition of a Great God (whom you call JuJu and whom jar calls GOD) may name Him,Her or It differently, but again..I share the definition of Great God with you. You imagine JuJu. I could argue that JuJu could hypothetically exist despite neither of us imagining it. Thus I am attempting to frame the argument on the right to believe in something greater than human imagination can conceive or deny. You may attempt to frame the argument differently. (How ya been, by the way, Straggler? )

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 312 by Straggler, posted 09-17-2017 1:15 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 314 by Straggler, posted 09-17-2017 3:56 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18456
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 316 of 318 (820224)
09-17-2017 4:39 PM
Reply to: Message 315 by Rrhain
09-17-2017 4:04 PM


Re: What The Story Says
So plants, which do not think, aren't alive?
Of course they are. we can readily measure the difference between a tree and a woodpile.
Why does the specialness of god regarding life only refer to thinking things?
Because living things have defined Him. If a hypothetical God only created a universe of rocks, He would still be special only to living things who defined Him. He may well be special even if we did not exist...but how would we know?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 315 by Rrhain, posted 09-17-2017 4:04 PM Rrhain has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 317 by Rrhain, posted 09-17-2017 10:57 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18456
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 318 of 318 (820237)
09-18-2017 2:35 AM
Reply to: Message 317 by Rrhain
09-17-2017 10:57 PM


Re: What The Story Says
Rrhain writes:
What does it mean to be "alive"? Your definition excluded plants. But then you say that they are alive.
I answered the question as to how I personally defined being alive myself. As for humans, among other things it means being aware of movement and other life around you...particularly other humans.
A paralysed person may not show any signs of awareness...nor may someone in a coma, so the definition extends to a heart and a mind. Im still thinking this question through....

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 317 by Rrhain, posted 09-17-2017 10:57 PM Rrhain has not replied

  
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