Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
4 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,817 Year: 3,074/9,624 Month: 919/1,588 Week: 102/223 Day: 13/17 Hour: 1/1


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   The Tension of Faith
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 16 of 1540 (820343)
09-19-2017 12:04 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Faith
09-19-2017 3:16 AM


Faith writes:
He told me, If I get to heaven, and find out I’m wrong, and see all my Jewish and atheist friends there I will cry tears of joy. I will shout, ‘Thank you God!’ I will be so happy.
He'll be happy until Allah slaps the burka on him.
It's funny how he says, "Even if I've been wrong about Hell all this time, I'm still right about God."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Faith, posted 09-19-2017 3:16 AM Faith has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


(1)
Message 17 of 1540 (820361)
09-19-2017 2:08 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by Faith
09-19-2017 9:56 AM


quote:
It is certainly the same mindset, uncompromising devotion to their religion, and I wish the writer of the essay had addressed it. But of course there is nothing actually dangerous in either Judaism or Christianity as there is in Islam, just offended feelings and moral indignation, whereas Islam does prescribe killing people and despite all the liberal denials is doing it quite frequently these days.
The Old Testament has an awful lot of killing in it - that's even part of the essay. If Judaism isn't dangerous it is because most Jews ignore those parts. And Christian history features a whole lot of killing, too.
quote:
And that is where I think the writer's thinking breaks down because to this point he is unable to accept that he is pitting himself against God just as liberals do, and failing to grasp that God's actions are always right and true and for our good, and that he needs to grow to the point where he can understand how.
In other words you ought to go further than accepting the evil and become propagandists for the evil.
You say that there is nothing dangerous in Christianity but you accept genocide as good and necessary. Given your views about Islam - and your view that the State is empowered to act in ways unacceptable in individuals I don't think that genocide against Muslims is very far from your thinking - and your 'Christianity" encourages it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by Faith, posted 09-19-2017 9:56 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by Faith, posted 09-19-2017 5:28 PM PaulK has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


(3)
Message 18 of 1540 (820362)
09-19-2017 2:19 PM


Religion Isn't Necessary for Morality
Realizing you don't need religion to be moral is like the little kid on his bike who one day realizes he doesn't need the training wheels.
--Percy

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by Faith, posted 09-19-2017 5:30 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 19 of 1540 (820376)
09-19-2017 5:28 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by PaulK
09-19-2017 2:08 PM


As the author says, there is no violence in today's Judaism, it's all part of the ancient historical context. Fake Christianity has done a lot of killing, not true Christianity.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by PaulK, posted 09-19-2017 2:08 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by PaulK, posted 09-20-2017 2:05 AM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


(1)
Message 20 of 1540 (820377)
09-19-2017 5:30 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by Percy
09-19-2017 2:19 PM


Re: Religion Isn't Necessary for Morality
Nobody has said that to be moral requires religion. The Bible tells us that we were all made in the image of God and that means we were all born with a moral sense. Nevertheless we don't get it right a lot of the time and that's why the Bible gives us the written Moral Law.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by Percy, posted 09-19-2017 2:19 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by Tangle, posted 09-20-2017 2:49 AM Faith has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 21 of 1540 (820387)
09-20-2017 2:05 AM
Reply to: Message 19 by Faith
09-19-2017 5:28 PM


quote:
As the author says, there is no violence in today's Judaism, it's all part of the ancient historical context. Fake Christianity has done a lot of killing, not true Christianity.
You could say much the same from Islam. The fact remains that the Bible glorifies genocide, and you seek to praise that rather than reject it. That attitude tended to encourage future acts.
But it is interesting that you would think of Luther and those puritans who hunted witches as "Fake Christians"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by Faith, posted 09-19-2017 5:28 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by Faith, posted 09-20-2017 3:59 AM PaulK has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 22 of 1540 (820390)
09-20-2017 2:49 AM
Reply to: Message 20 by Faith
09-19-2017 5:30 PM


Re: Religion Isn't Necessary for Morality
You didn't answer my question, do you believe that people that don't believe the same things as you are going to hell?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by Faith, posted 09-19-2017 5:30 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by Faith, posted 09-20-2017 3:58 AM Tangle has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 23 of 1540 (820393)
09-20-2017 3:58 AM
Reply to: Message 22 by Tangle
09-20-2017 2:49 AM


Re: Religion Isn't Necessary for Morality
You didn't answer my question, do you believe that people that don't believe the same things as you are going to hell?
I believe you have to put all your trust in Jesus as the only salvation from Hell. No other religion offers a Savior or salvation from Hell. They believe in various versions of hell but they have no salvation from them.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by Tangle, posted 09-20-2017 2:49 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by Tangle, posted 09-20-2017 4:10 AM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 24 of 1540 (820394)
09-20-2017 3:59 AM
Reply to: Message 21 by PaulK
09-20-2017 2:05 AM


The fact remains that the Bible glorifies genocide, and you seek to praise that rather than reject it. That attitude tended to encourage future acts.
The Bible teaches the severity of God's Justice.
And if the Bible is the truth what good would it do anyone to refuse to believe it? That isn't going to stop God's justice from operating whether you like it or not.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by PaulK, posted 09-20-2017 2:05 AM PaulK has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 25 of 1540 (820395)
09-20-2017 4:10 AM
Reply to: Message 23 by Faith
09-20-2017 3:58 AM


Re: Religion Isn't Necessary for Morality
Faith writes:
I believe you have to put all your trust in Jesus as the only salvation from Hell. No other religion offers a Savior or salvation from Hell. They believe in various versions of hell but they have no salvation from them.
That's a very evasive answer.
I take it then that the minimum requirement is to be a baptised Christian?
Catholics trust in Jesus yet you denounce them. Are they going to hell?
Is GDR going to hell?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by Faith, posted 09-20-2017 3:58 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by Faith, posted 09-20-2017 4:13 AM Tangle has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 26 of 1540 (820396)
09-20-2017 4:13 AM
Reply to: Message 25 by Tangle
09-20-2017 4:10 AM


Salvation from Hell comes only through Jesus Christ
Whoever trusts in Jesus as your salvation from Hell will be saved from Hell. That includes Catholics who trust in Jesus for salvation. Many of them trust in their membership in the Roman Church instead, but that won't save anybody, nor will being baptized. Jesus is the Savior, not the Church or the rituals.
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. "
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by Tangle, posted 09-20-2017 4:10 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by Tangle, posted 09-20-2017 4:35 AM Faith has replied
 Message 34 by ringo, posted 09-20-2017 3:23 PM Faith has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 27 of 1540 (820399)
09-20-2017 4:35 AM
Reply to: Message 26 by Faith
09-20-2017 4:13 AM


Re: Religion Isn't Necessary for Morality
Faith writes:
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life".
There's about 7.5bn people on the planet and about 2.2bn are Christians. Let's say that all of them pass your test - so that's a large overestimate. That means that 70% of the people alive today are going to hell simply because they were born in the wrong country or to the wrong parents. 5bn people tortured in hell for eternity.
That's some git of a god you've got there, Faith.
Something like 107bn people have ever lived. A big chunk of those will have been alive before Christianity was invented and it took a few thousand years to grow, so I'd say 85 billion people in hell to date as a very conservative guess, for no fault of their own.
God 'so loved the world' that he comdemned almost all of his creation to everalsting torture? Does that actually make sense to you?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by Faith, posted 09-20-2017 4:13 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by Faith, posted 09-20-2017 4:47 AM Tangle has replied
 Message 29 by Faith, posted 09-20-2017 5:23 AM Tangle has not replied
 Message 33 by Diomedes, posted 09-20-2017 9:34 AM Tangle has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 28 of 1540 (820401)
09-20-2017 4:47 AM
Reply to: Message 27 by Tangle
09-20-2017 4:35 AM


Salvation from Hell comes by Jesus Christ
Jesus didn't come to send people to Hell but to save them from Hell. If He hadn't come people would have been going to Hell all over the world because there was no Savior. Now there is a Savior, and thanks to Christian missionaries and now worldwide communication methods people all over the world have heard the gospel, which Christ taught us to spread to everybody so they could be saved.
But people like you condemn us for telling people about Him so they can be saved. You know the gospel yet here you are complaining that there is a Savior from Hell though until He came there was no way to be saved from Hell.
As I understand the character of God from the Bible those who know the most have the most responsibility, so that wherever people have truly not heard the gospel I expect a lot more mercy from God than toward those who have heard it and reject it. And the Bible also teaches that there are people everywhere who intuitively understand the Moral Law and obey it, so they will certainly receive mercy.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by Tangle, posted 09-20-2017 4:35 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by Tangle, posted 09-20-2017 5:31 AM Faith has replied
 Message 37 by Tangle, posted 09-20-2017 5:30 PM Faith has replied
 Message 858 by Phat, posted 11-22-2017 4:28 PM Faith has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 29 of 1540 (820403)
09-20-2017 5:23 AM
Reply to: Message 27 by Tangle
09-20-2017 4:35 AM


Salvation is by Christ
John 3:17:
17For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by Tangle, posted 09-20-2017 4:35 AM Tangle has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 30 of 1540 (820406)
09-20-2017 5:31 AM
Reply to: Message 28 by Faith
09-20-2017 4:47 AM


Re: Salvation from Hell comes by Jesus Christ
Faith writes:
As I understand the character of God from the Bible those who know the most have the most responsibility, so that wherever people have truly not heard the gospel I expect a lot more mercy from God than toward those who have heard it and reject it. And the Bible also teaches that there are people everywhere who intuitively understand the Moral Law and obey it, so they will certainly receive mercy.
Right so now there are grades of hell? Some of the eternal torture is less than for others?
You wouldn't be making stuff up again would you?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by Faith, posted 09-20-2017 4:47 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by Faith, posted 09-20-2017 5:46 AM Tangle has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024