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Author Topic:   The Tension of Faith
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 31 of 1540 (820407)
09-20-2017 5:46 AM
Reply to: Message 30 by Tangle
09-20-2017 5:31 AM


Re: Salvation from Hell comes by Jesus Christ
Right so now there are grades of hell? Some of the eternal torture is less than for others?
You wouldn't be making stuff up again would you?
The religions that recognize Hell may recognize many Hells which represent degrees of punishment or different kinds of punishment for different sins. The Bible refers to different degrees of punishment:
Will There Be Degrees of Judgment in Hell?
Such as:
Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the mighty works which were done in you had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. But I say unto you, It will be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon in the day of judgment than for you (Matthew 11:20-22).
[and]
And you, Capernaum, will you be lifted up to the skies? No, you will go down to the depths. If the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Sodom, it would have remained to this day. But I tell you that it will be more bearable for Sodom on the day of judgment than for you (Matthew 11:23,24).
...How much worse punishment do you think will be deserved by those who have spurned the Son of God, profaned the blood of the covenant by which they were sanctified, and outraged the Spirit of grace? (Hebrews 10:29).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by Tangle, posted 09-20-2017 5:31 AM Tangle has not replied

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


(2)
Message 32 of 1540 (820413)
09-20-2017 9:28 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Faith
09-19-2017 3:16 AM


Sounds like extra baggage
Faith's linked article writes:
Religion’s finest moments in history have starred zealots who refused to bow to common sense...
This idea of zealots who refuse to bow to common sense also describes religion's worst moments in history.
Crusades.
Most wars.
If only we could understand that no one needs a Bible or Laws or Commandments in order to be a good person.
All you have to do is ask the person you're affecting if they like it or not.
If they're screaming in defiance while you segregate them away from the rest of society; this is probably a good indication that they don't like what you're doing to them. And you should stop.
Stand up for the belief that we all have the equal right to pursue our own ideas as we see fit.
All the good religious examples from the article are exactly this ^^

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Faith, posted 09-19-2017 3:16 AM Faith has not replied

  
Diomedes
Member
Posts: 995
From: Central Florida, USA
Joined: 09-13-2013


(1)
Message 33 of 1540 (820414)
09-20-2017 9:34 AM
Reply to: Message 27 by Tangle
09-20-2017 4:35 AM


Re: Religion Isn't Necessary for Morality
Something like 107bn people have ever lived. A big chunk of those will have been alive before Christianity was invented and it took a few thousand years to grow, so I'd say 85 billion people in hell to date as a very conservative guess, for no fault of their own.
Kenny goes to HELL!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by Tangle, posted 09-20-2017 4:35 AM Tangle has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 34 of 1540 (820433)
09-20-2017 3:23 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by Faith
09-20-2017 4:13 AM


Re: Salvation from Hell comes only through Jesus Christ
Faith writes:
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. "
But what does it mean to "believe" in Him? Does it mean to mouth, "Lord! Lord!" or does it mean to do what He said?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by Faith, posted 09-20-2017 4:13 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by Faith, posted 09-20-2017 3:30 PM ringo has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 35 of 1540 (820434)
09-20-2017 3:30 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by ringo
09-20-2017 3:23 PM


Re: Salvation from Hell comes only through Jesus Christ
Neither.
It means to consciously put all your trust in Him for salvation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by ringo, posted 09-20-2017 3:23 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by ringo, posted 09-20-2017 3:31 PM Faith has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 36 of 1540 (820436)
09-20-2017 3:31 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by Faith
09-20-2017 3:30 PM


Re: Salvation from Hell comes only through Jesus Christ
Faith writes:
It means to consciously put all your trust in Him for salvation.
Salvation from what? His Father? That's just apologetic mumbo-jumbo.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by Faith, posted 09-20-2017 3:30 PM Faith has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 37 of 1540 (820445)
09-20-2017 5:30 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by Faith
09-20-2017 4:47 AM


Re: Salvation from Hell comes by Jesus Christ
Faith writes:
Jesus didn't come to send people to Hell but to save them from Hell. If He hadn't come people would have been going to Hell all over the world because there was no Savior.
And you don't think that this is the most bizarre and evil idea that has ever been thought?
God creates man to live a short and brutal life ending in eternal torture. After a few thousand years of hell filling up he has second thoughts and sends his son to earth to be killed in order to save a small percentage of the population allowing the remaining billions to enjoy eternal torture regardless of how decently they live their lives.
It's utterly preposterous.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by Faith, posted 09-20-2017 4:47 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by NoNukes, posted 09-20-2017 6:06 PM Tangle has replied
 Message 41 by Faith, posted 09-21-2017 1:06 AM Tangle has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 38 of 1540 (820447)
09-20-2017 6:06 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by Tangle
09-20-2017 5:30 PM


Re: Salvation from Hell comes by Jesus Christ
God creates man to live a short and brutal life ending in eternal torture.
Actually, that is not the story in Genesis. Genesis says that man was created to live eternally, but due to his own screw-ups lost his unending life on earth. Where Hell came from really is not discussed in Genesis or much of anywhere else in the Bible.
I think you can still make a logical conundrum out of all this, but you haven't done that yet.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I was thinking as long as I have my hands up they’re not going to shoot me. This is what I’m thinking they’re not going to shoot me. Wow, was I wrong. -- Charles Kinsey
We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.
Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith
I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by Tangle, posted 09-20-2017 5:30 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by Tangle, posted 09-20-2017 6:32 PM NoNukes has replied
 Message 42 by PaulK, posted 09-21-2017 1:27 AM NoNukes has replied
 Message 55 by ringo, posted 09-21-2017 11:51 AM NoNukes has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 39 of 1540 (820449)
09-20-2017 6:32 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by NoNukes
09-20-2017 6:06 PM


Re: Salvation from Hell comes by Jesus Christ
NoNukes writes:
I think you can still make a logical conundrum out of all this, but you haven't done that yet.
There's really not much point trying much harder because you all have different excuses as to why it all hangs together despite it's obvious nonsenses.
You don't accept the omni-god so your particular get-out-of-hell card is that god didn't forsee The Fall, because of course if he had, the the creation was an error. etc etc.
Others who believe in this archane system believe something quite different, it's like nailing blancmange to the ceiling.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by NoNukes, posted 09-20-2017 6:06 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by NoNukes, posted 09-20-2017 9:37 PM Tangle has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 40 of 1540 (820452)
09-20-2017 9:37 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by Tangle
09-20-2017 6:32 PM


Re: Salvation from Hell comes by Jesus Christ
There's really not much point trying much harder
That is your excuse for posting shite? Very well.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I was thinking as long as I have my hands up they’re not going to shoot me. This is what I’m thinking they’re not going to shoot me. Wow, was I wrong. -- Charles Kinsey
We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.
Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith
I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by Tangle, posted 09-20-2017 6:32 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by Tangle, posted 09-21-2017 2:07 AM NoNukes has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 41 of 1540 (820454)
09-21-2017 1:06 AM
Reply to: Message 37 by Tangle
09-20-2017 5:30 PM


Re: Salvation from Hell comes by Jesus Christ
Faith writes:
Jesus didn't come to send people to Hell but to save them from Hell. If He hadn't come people would have been going to Hell all over the world because there was no Savior.
And you don't think that this is the most bizarre and evil idea that has ever been thought?
God creates man to live a short and brutal life ending in eternal torture. After a few thousand years of hell filling up he has second thoughts and sends his son to earth to be killed in order to save a small percentage of the population allowing the remaining billions to enjoy eternal torture regardless of how decently they live their lives.
As I've said many times, and NN said the same above, God did not CREATE the current condition of mankind, it is the result of our disobedience of God.
And sending Jesus to be our Savior was no "second thought," it was planned from the beginning. The problems you are complaining about are due to our free will and our habit of choosing sin which gets us even deeper into our pain and suffering. God OFFERS the gospel of salvation to everyone, Christians try to make sure it reaches everyone. Then they have the choice to accept or reject.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by Tangle, posted 09-20-2017 5:30 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by Tangle, posted 09-21-2017 2:26 AM Faith has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 42 of 1540 (820455)
09-21-2017 1:27 AM
Reply to: Message 38 by NoNukes
09-20-2017 6:06 PM


Re: Salvation from Hell comes by Jesus Christ
Almost, you forget that in Genesis Man was created to be a dumb gardener.
But in that story God is depicted as being more like a pagan God than the grand deity of monotheism. If God is assumed to be greater than the story shows, it becomes considerably different.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by NoNukes, posted 09-20-2017 6:06 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 48 by NoNukes, posted 09-21-2017 4:37 AM PaulK has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 43 of 1540 (820456)
09-21-2017 2:07 AM
Reply to: Message 40 by NoNukes
09-20-2017 9:37 PM


Re: Salvation from Hell comes by Jesus Christ
NoNukes writes:
That is your excuse for posting shite? Very well.
And that's your excuse for not explaining how your personal version of god can be the Christian God whilst not having a clue what he's doing. Ok.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by NoNukes, posted 09-20-2017 9:37 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by NoNukes, posted 09-21-2017 4:34 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 44 of 1540 (820457)
09-21-2017 2:26 AM
Reply to: Message 41 by Faith
09-21-2017 1:06 AM


Re: Salvation from Hell comes by Jesus Christ
Faith writes:
As I've said many times, and NN said the same above, God did not CREATE the current condition of mankind, it is the result of our disobedience of God.
In you belief system the all seeing, all knowing, all loving, all powerful being created two vulnerable innocents who were then tricked by a snake (which god had also created) into eating an apple (which god had created) which gave them knowledge.
Despite this being like putting a child into a room with a chocolate bar and wonder why the toddler eat it he gets so pissed that he condemns all their progeny to everlasting torture. That's getting on for 100 billion people to date in hell for something their parents did.
And what's god's response? He sends his 'son' to be killed for Adam's 'sin' which in some inexplicable way attones for it. But not fully, oh no, only for a few people who happen to live in a part of the world where this Jesus guy is known and only if they grovel in admiration of this psychopath.
He's not a clever or nice god is he? And it's not a very believable story is it?
And sending Jesus to be our Savior was no "second thought," it was planned from the beginning.
He fucking planned it? Wow, what a total bastard.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by Faith, posted 09-21-2017 1:06 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by Faith, posted 09-21-2017 3:28 AM Tangle has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 45 of 1540 (820459)
09-21-2017 3:28 AM
Reply to: Message 44 by Tangle
09-21-2017 2:26 AM


Re: Salvation from Hell comes by Jesus Christ
Scripture tells us Jesus came to "give beauty for ashes" (Isaiah 61:3), while over and over people here turn all the beauty into ashes, the uglier the ashes and the words used to describe them the better it seems. It never fails.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by Tangle, posted 09-21-2017 2:26 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 46 by Tangle, posted 09-21-2017 4:26 AM Faith has not replied

  
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