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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1464 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
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Author | Topic: The Tension of Faith | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Tangle Member Posts: 9504 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.7 |
Faith writes: Scripture tells us Jesus came to "give beauty for ashes" (Isaiah 61:3), while over and over people here turn all the beauty into ashes, the uglier the ashes and the words used to describe them the better it seems. It never fails. If this is supposed to be an answer to my post, I'm not seeing it.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
And that's your excuse for not explaining how your personal version of god can be the Christian God whilst not having a clue what he's doing. Ok. So given your deflection, I conclude I am right, You have no reason for posting absolute crap. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) I was thinking as long as I have my hands up they’re not going to shoot me. This is what I’m thinking they’re not going to shoot me. Wow, was I wrong. -- Charles Kinsey We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World. Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
Almost, you forget that in Genesis Man was created to be a dumb gardener. I reviewed the context of my comment. There is a considerable amount of story in Genesis that I did not mention. None of it appears to be essential to my comment to Tangle that his remarks did not match the story. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) I was thinking as long as I have my hands up they’re not going to shoot me. This is what I’m thinking they’re not going to shoot me. Wow, was I wrong. -- Charles Kinsey We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World. Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith
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Tangle Member Posts: 9504 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.7
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NoNuke writes: I conclude I am right, Congratulations! How very like Faith.
You have no reason for posting absolute crap. And you feel under no obligation to say why. Interesting.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Percy Member Posts: 22479 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 4.7
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Tangle writes: You have no reason for posting absolute crap. And you feel under no obligation to say why. Interesting. This exchange between you and NoNukes began with your Message 37 where you said:
Tangle in Message 37 writes: And you don't think that this is the most bizarre and evil idea that has ever been thought? God creates man to live a short and brutal life ending in eternal torture. After a few thousand years of hell filling up he has second thoughts and sends his son to earth to be killed in order to save a small percentage of the population allowing the remaining billions to enjoy eternal torture regardless of how decently they live their lives. It's utterly preposterous. NoNukes responded in Message 38:
NoNukes in Message 38 writes: Actually, that is not the story in Genesis. Genesis says that man was created to live eternally, but due to his own screw-ups lost his unending life on earth. Where Hell came from really is not discussed in Genesis or much of anywhere else in the Bible. I think you can still make a logical conundrum out of all this, but you haven't done that yet. What seems to have put the bee in NoNukes' bonnet was when you replied like this in Message 39:
Tangle in Message 39 writes: There's really not much point trying much harder because you all have different excuses as to why it all hangs together despite it's obvious nonsenses. I think when NoNukes said that you might have a case ("you can still make a logical conundrum out of all this") that he thought you should tighten up your arguments and logic, for example, be more accurate about where those Christian concepts of hell and damnation come from, something more like a legal brief, but I'm not sure why he feels this way. Just the nonsense and illogic you listed is sufficient to show that Christianity is a work of imagination. To ask you for more makes as much sense as asking someone to tighten up their arguments against the existence of leprechauns. One could do it, but it's not like it's necessary. Christianity is religion, not history or science. Religions do what they do, and portions of many of them make a kind of internal sense, including Christianity, but they don't make sense in the real world, and fact and reality is all that is required to make this point. So while I agree with NoNukes that you don't have a complete or fully accurate argument in a legalistic sense, one seems unnecessary because you are correct on the essential points and what you've said so far seems more than sufficient. Instead of objecting to what you say on procedural grounds I'd like to see him address your actual arguments. --Percy
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Tangle Member Posts: 9504 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.7 |
Percy writes: I think when NoNukes said that you might have a case ("you can still make a logical conundrum out of all this") that he thought you should tighten up your arguments and logic, for example, be more accurate about where those Christian concepts of hell and damnation come from, something more like a legal brief, but I'm not sure why he feels this way. Yes, he would like to draw me into biblical literary criticism which I'm simply not interesred in; it's more important that those who believe in these things actually justify what they believe and the justification is not in the bible stories, it's in the logic of their belief in them. eg how can you believe in a loving god that condems 90% of all humanity to everlasting torture for something a distant parent allegedly did? The problem here is that I'm responding to Faith's beliefs which are, apparently, very different to Nuke's. Christians believe very different things based on the same stories. I can't argue with him based on what Faith believes. His beef is not with me playing back Faith's beliefs, it's with Faith. If he'd like to display his belief based on this damnable book, I'll happily have a pop at that, but until he does, it's moot.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Phat Member Posts: 18298 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
tangle writes: Lets take this over to Encouragement From A Believers Perspective. ...it's more important that those who believe in these things actually justify what they believe and the justification is not in the bible stories, it's in the logic of their belief in them. eg how can you believe in a loving god that condemns 90% of all humanity to everlasting torture for something a distant parent allegedly did?Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith "as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler
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PaulK Member Posts: 17825 Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
quote: And I reviewed your comment and it was misleading without that point. I further note that you did not address my other point which was relevant to your discussion with Tangle.
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Phat Member Posts: 18298 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Percy writes: The only way to make any sense out of beliefs, scriptures, or doctrines is to have someone explain them the way that the individual believes and why. Just the nonsense and illogic you listed is sufficient to show that Christianity is a work of imagination. To ask you for more makes as much sense as asking someone to tighten up their arguments against the existence of leprechauns. One could do it, but it's not like it's necessary. Christianity is religion, not history or science. Religions do what they do, and portions of many of them make a kind of internal sense, including Christianity, but they don't make sense in the real world, and fact and reality is all that is required to make this point. What frustrates me about Faith is that she ignores responding to any of her critics---even to me--who is not as critical as some...I only want her to be honest and admit that her logic is based on her belief. Faith, if you hope to reach any of the people here at EvC you are simply going to have to answer their questions and quit dodging them. Quoting scripture won't work in the absence of honest participation. When I first came to EvC, I was frustrated that my beliefs were challenged and even mocked. i now realize that I needed that baptism of fire and am glad that I have responded and continue to respond to many who have a different worldview from myself. As far as salvation and Jesus goes, I also encourage people to accept the hypothetical and let reality sort itself out. Please don't judge Jesus based on the flawed personalities of myself or faith. Were it I, I also wouldn't judge Him based on the behavior of the God in OT stories. Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith "as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler
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ringo Member (Idle past 432 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
NoNukes writes:
No it doesn't.
Genesis says that man was created to live eternally....
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Phat Member Posts: 18298 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1
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well, technically they had to eat from the tree of life first. One could say that jesus (as the vine) represents that tree. People chose knowledge (independence) and self awareness over communion, however. And we(many of we) continue to do the same today.
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith "as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
that he thought you should tighten up your arguments and logic, for example, be more accurate about where those Christian concepts of hell and damnation come from, something more like a legal brief, but I'm not sure why he feels this way. I made my comment because almost nothing about Tangle's criticism was actually accurate. A bad argument is a bad argument. I do acknowledge that many Christian beliefs can be questioned in a rational manner, however just making crap up is not rational. I believe I can point that out without having a responsibility to respond to arguments no one has even made.
Instead of objecting to what you say on procedural grounds I'd like to see him address your actual arguments. Maybe I will do that if he actually makes an argument. I have done so in the past. But I am not going to make up arguments for him and then respond to that. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) I was thinking as long as I have my hands up they’re not going to shoot me. This is what I’m thinking they’re not going to shoot me. Wow, was I wrong. -- Charles Kinsey We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World. Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith
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kbertsche Member (Idle past 2151 days) Posts: 1427 From: San Jose, CA, USA Joined: |
Faith writes:
Faith, great OP! I agree with you completely on this topic. When a doctor gives a terminal diagnosis to a patient, it's not because he WANTS them to die, but because they need to know the truth. What the doctor WANTS is irrelevant. For some reason, most atheists and agnostics can't see that our position is analogous to the doctor's. The article made things somewhat easier between me and my friend, since in these cases I usually have to avoid saying much about my beliefs, so it was a big relief to have a less conflictful frame of reference. It's SO true, I don't WANT anybody to go to Hell, but if I believe God has decreed it I can't argue with God, and all I can do is pray that God will save those I care about."Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." — Albert Einstein I am very astonished that the scientific picture of the real world around me is very deficient. It gives us a lot of factual information, puts all of our experience in a magnificently consistent order, but it is ghastly silent about all and sundry that is really near to our heart, that really matters to us. It cannot tell us a word about red and blue, bitter and sweet, physical pain and physical delight; it knows nothing of beautiful and ugly, good or bad, God and eternity. Science sometimes pretends to answer questions in these domains, but the answers are very often so silly that we are not inclined to take them seriously. — Erwin Schroedinger
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Tangle Member Posts: 9504 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.7 |
NN writes: I made my comment because almost nothing about Tangle's criticism was actually accurate. A bad argument is a bad argument.[...]Maybe I will do that if he actually makes an argument. I have done so in the past. But I am not going to make up arguments for him and then respond to that. And yet you continue to butt into a discussion I'm having with Faith calling it 'a bad argument', 'crap' and not even an argument, without actually saying why; in fact refusing to say why. Methinks the lady doth protest too much. Like I say, interesting, very interesting. I think a nerve has been touched. Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1464 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Thanks very much, KB, what a relief that there is at least one person here who sees it the way I do.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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