|
Register | Sign In |
|
QuickSearch
EvC Forum active members: 64 (9164 total) |
| |
ChatGPT | |
Total: 916,789 Year: 4,046/9,624 Month: 917/974 Week: 244/286 Day: 5/46 Hour: 1/1 |
Thread ▼ Details |
Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1471 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
|
Thread Info
|
|
|
Author | Topic: The Tension of Faith | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Tangle Member Posts: 9509 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8
|
KB writes: When a doctor gives a terminal diagnosis to a patient, it's not because he WANTS them to die, but because they need to know the truth. What the doctor WANTS is irrelevant. For some reason, most atheists and agnostics can't see that our position is analogous to the doctor's. Don't be silly, we know that that Faith doesn't want her friends to go to hell. If she thought that, they are very unlikely to be her friends. (She often though derives a lot of satisfaction from telling her opponants here that we're heading that way.) She now seems happy that she's found a neat little linguistic way over the problem of feeling bad about her friends - who, presumably, are in every other way except in believing something different to her are decent people - are going to be tortured by her god forever and ever, amen. She can feel better knowing that it's not her fault, don't shoot the messenger. The point we're discussing is about whether the message itself makes any kind of sense and of course it doesn't. The message is at its very best a childish fantasy and horror story.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1471 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
There are very few people here I'd like to see in Hell either. A couple perhaps. But I'd prefer it if they'd repent and be saved, just as God does:
2 Peter 3:9: The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18338 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Tangle writes: Prayer is not about begging. It's about turning off your inner Alpha Male for a moment and surrendering to peace, patience, and wisdom. Granted you don't pray...but what would be your method if you were in a hurricane and the roof suddenly blew off? would you matter of factly and instinctively react or would you freeze...paralyzed by fear? What could be more relevant than whether a supplicant is wasting his time begging for help? Edited by Phat, : No reason given.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith "as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Tangle Member Posts: 9509 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8
|
Phat writes: Prayer is not about begging. It's about turning off your inner Alpha Male for a moment and surrendering to peace, patience, and wisdom. I think you're confusing the sort of prayer you do in quiet moments with the sort of prayer you do when you're entire life is being blown away in a category 5 hurricane.
Granted you don't pray...but what would be your method if you were in a hurricane and the roof suddenly blew off? would you matter of factly and instinctively react or would you freeze...paralyzed by fear? I would do something practical and if I couldn't I get the scotch out and hope for the best. Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Percy Member Posts: 22493 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 4.9 |
NoNukes writes: I made my comment because almost nothing about Tangle's criticism was actually accurate. Since the main point of Tangle's criticism seems accurate, I don't understand why you're saying "nothing...was actually accurate." Faith's stated position in Message 23 was, "I believe you have to put all your trust in Jesus as the only salvation from Hell." Faith later mitigates her position a bit, for instance in Message 28 where she states that are those "who intuitively understand the Moral Law and obey it, so they will certainly receive mercy," but she confirms in Message 31 that they're still going to hell. So Faith condemns the vast proportion of the human race to hell. Tangle pointed this out in Message 37, but you're objecting to it as inaccurate. Where's the inaccuracy? --Percy
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
NoNukes Inactive Member |
I don't understand why you're saying "nothing...was actually accurate." I commented about a specific statement by Tangle. That statement was totally inaccurate, and so far I have heard nothing but excuses about why he does not have to do better. I even acknowledged that there were better arguments to be made. I doubt either you are he would tolerate the same kind of nonsense from a creationist. But apparently when folks you agree with make a bad argument, that's just fine with you. Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) I was thinking as long as I have my hands up they’re not going to shoot me. This is what I’m thinking they’re not going to shoot me. Wow, was I wrong. -- Charles Kinsey We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World. Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Tangle Member Posts: 9509 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
Another contentless reply. What ARE you talking about?
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
kbertsche Member (Idle past 2158 days) Posts: 1427 From: San Jose, CA, USA Joined: |
Tangle writes:
But that's NOT the point of this thread or of the OP, as I understand it. The point is to help unbelievers understand our perspective. We don't pick and choose the parts that we like about religion or theology, throwing away the rest. Rather, we have become convinced that the Bible is true, and we are captive to the Word of God. Often we become convinced of things that seem to be counterintuitive or that we would not have chosen on our own. The point we're discussing is about whether the message itself makes any kind of sense and of course it doesn't. The message is at its very best a childish fantasy and horror story. When a doctor gives you an unpleasant diagnosis, you are certainly free to reject it and to call it a "childish fantasy" and a "horror story". But what if it is true?"Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." — Albert Einstein I am very astonished that the scientific picture of the real world around me is very deficient. It gives us a lot of factual information, puts all of our experience in a magnificently consistent order, but it is ghastly silent about all and sundry that is really near to our heart, that really matters to us. It cannot tell us a word about red and blue, bitter and sweet, physical pain and physical delight; it knows nothing of beautiful and ugly, good or bad, God and eternity. Science sometimes pretends to answer questions in these domains, but the answers are very often so silly that we are not inclined to take them seriously. — Erwin Schroedinger
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 438 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
It doesn't say that.
well, technically they had to eat from the tree of life first. Phat writes:
In the story, it isn't even a question of choosing between the two. They could have had both.
One could say that jesus (as the vine) represents that tree. People chose knowledge (independence) and self awareness over communion, however.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
kbertsche Member (Idle past 2158 days) Posts: 1427 From: San Jose, CA, USA Joined: |
ringo writes:
Gen 3:22 says that IF they had been allowed to eat from the tree, then they WOULD have been able to live forever. What do you think this verse means?
Phat writes:
well, technically they had to eat from the tree of life first.
It doesn't say that.
"Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." — Albert Einstein I am very astonished that the scientific picture of the real world around me is very deficient. It gives us a lot of factual information, puts all of our experience in a magnificently consistent order, but it is ghastly silent about all and sundry that is really near to our heart, that really matters to us. It cannot tell us a word about red and blue, bitter and sweet, physical pain and physical delight; it knows nothing of beautiful and ugly, good or bad, God and eternity. Science sometimes pretends to answer questions in these domains, but the answers are very often so silly that we are not inclined to take them seriously. — Erwin Schroedinger
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Tangle Member Posts: 9509 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
KB writes: But that's NOT the point of this thread or of the OP, as I understand it. The point is to help unbelievers understand our perspective. We don't pick and choose the parts that we like about religion or theology, throwing away the rest. Rather, we have become convinced that the Bible is true, and we are captive to the Word of God. Often we become convinced of things that seem to be counterintuitive or that we would not have chosen on our own. If that IS the point, then of course I understand that Faith doesn't actually want her friends to go to hell, but nevertheless she thinks they will. If that's a point you think requires making, well ok. I think it unlikely to carry much weight with her friends but at least it's a coherent intellectual position. It's hardly a difficult point to make or understand. But we've moved on.
But what if it is true? In the case of the doctor, it's obviously very likely to be true - he's acting on ral evidence in the real world. In the case of a hell belief for the majority of all mankind, the argument has progressed on to why it is obviously NOT true or at least not internally consistent within the belief system in question. Edited by Tangle, : No reason given. Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Aussie Member Posts: 275 From: FL USA Joined: |
There are very few people here I'd like to see in Hell either. A couple perhaps. That is a truly mostrous thing to say Faith. Just horrifying to hear come from the mouth of a non-psychopathic human being. You would like to see a human writhe in eternal agony? Would you look on in smug satisfaction that you had been proved right all along? Is this truly in your heart? Do your words mean anything? Which atheist here have you heard say anything as immorally animalistic as this? This is a serious question, please answer me! I want you to show me where a single one of the "godless atheists" here have ever spoken that way to you. Can you even imagine it?
There are very few christians here I would like to see thrown to the lions. A couple perhaps. There are very few Chrisitans here I would like to see slowly burned alive at the stake. A couple perhaps. Despite our great differences of opinion I would not wish the smallest harm on you Faith. I wish you a long and fullfilled life despite what I believe to be astounding desusion on your part. Where is your moral compass here? Edited by Aussie, : No reason given."...heck is a small price to pay for the truth"
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1471 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
The couple I have in mind regularly blaspheme God way beyond normal atheism, and say things that would seriously mislead others. If they repent and get saved I will of course be very happy. Is there anyone at all you yourself think might deserve Hell? Mass murderers?
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 438 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
kbertsche writes:
I think it means that IF they had been allowed to eat from the tree, then they WOULD have been able to live forever. Gen 3:22 says that IF they had been allowed to eat from the tree, then they WOULD have been able to live forever. What do you think this verse means? It seems to suggest that they didn't eat from the tree.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
PaulK Member Posts: 17827 Joined: Member Rating: 2.3
|
quote: More accurately you don't let your conscience influence your belief. But that, I must say is a worrying thing. To follow conscience when it is difficult is one thing - to go against it is quite another, especially when you hold your religion up as a source of morality. That doesn't show that you don't engage in picking and choosing, and it is quite likely that you do. But I have to say that I find what you call "picking and choosing" - on these grounds - more admirable then celebrating evil and calling it good. And if God is really perfectly good and just, I am pretty sure that is what He would prefer.
|
|
|
Do Nothing Button
Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved
Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024