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Author Topic:   The Tension of Faith
Aussie
Member
Posts: 275
From: FL USA
Joined: 10-02-2006


Message 91 of 1540 (820565)
09-22-2017 5:14 PM
Reply to: Message 89 by Phat
09-22-2017 5:03 PM


Re: Salvation from Hell comes by Jesus Christ
Logically, God wouldnt particularly want creatures living forever that wanted nothing to do with Him.
Hey Phat! I'm sorry, I know you weren't talking to me, but is it logical that the best other option to me not wanting to spend time with Him is...Him burning me in eternal flame?
What about a different option? Maybe for all those who choose not to be with Him, perhaps they just die? Eternal oblivion as if we never existed? Like we were before we were born?
I mean, why is eternal suffering the best option? It just seems to cut across that gorgeous Psalm where it says "His mercies are new every morning."
Unless you choose not to follow Him. Then watch out.

"...heck is a small price to pay for the truth"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 89 by Phat, posted 09-22-2017 5:03 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 93 by Phat, posted 09-23-2017 12:38 AM Aussie has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22388
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 92 of 1540 (820567)
09-22-2017 5:57 PM
Reply to: Message 66 by NoNukes
09-22-2017 10:39 AM


Re: Salvation from Hell comes by Jesus Christ
My initial reaction to your post kind of echos Tangle where he says in Message 67, "Another contentless reply. What ARE you talking about?". But maybe there's some kind of disconnect, so let me try again.
NoNukes writes:
I commented about a specific statement by Tangle.
I thought I was commenting on the same statement, the one I quoted from Tangle's Message 37 in my Message 50, the one that goes like this:
Tangle in Message 37 writes:
And you don't think that this is the most bizarre and evil idea that has ever been thought?
God creates man to live a short and brutal life ending in eternal torture. After a few thousand years of hell filling up he has second thoughts and sends his son to earth to be killed in order to save a small percentage of the population allowing the remaining billions to enjoy eternal torture regardless of how decently they live their lives.
It's utterly preposterous.
You responded in Message 38:
NoNukes in Message 38 writes:
Actually, that is not the story in Genesis. Genesis says that man was created to live eternally, but due to his own screw-ups lost his unending life on earth. Where Hell came from really is not discussed in Genesis or much of anywhere else in the Bible.
I think you can still make a logical conundrum out of all this, but you haven't done that yet.
But it seems to Tangle and me that you have a different view on all this than Faith does, and Tangle is trying to have a discussion with Faith. You might disagree with Tangle's description, but he does seem to have captured Faith's position pretty accurately (the vast preponderance of humanity is condemned to hell), and he does seem to have a rational opinion (it's cruel, heartless, unworthy of any God worth worshiping, preposterous).
Unless you're talking about something else Tangle said, I don't see why you have a problem with what Tangle is saying.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by NoNukes, posted 09-22-2017 10:39 AM NoNukes has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


(1)
Message 93 of 1540 (820570)
09-23-2017 12:38 AM
Reply to: Message 91 by Aussie
09-22-2017 5:14 PM


Re: Salvation from Hell comes by Jesus Christ
Actually Aussie--you have a good point. I've always wondered why ceasing to exist was not offered to those who failed to make the cut---it would be more humane.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by Aussie, posted 09-22-2017 5:14 PM Aussie has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 94 of 1540 (820579)
09-23-2017 11:41 AM
Reply to: Message 89 by Phat
09-22-2017 5:03 PM


Re: Salvation from Hell comes by Jesus Christ
Phat writes:
Logically, God wouldnt particularly want creatures living forever that wanted nothing to do with Him.
Logically, eternal life and procreation don't mix. Logically, there's no point to male and female without procreation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 89 by Phat, posted 09-22-2017 5:03 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 95 by Phat, posted 09-23-2017 2:33 PM ringo has replied
 Message 96 by kbertsche, posted 09-23-2017 10:08 PM ringo has seen this message but not replied
 Message 98 by Phat, posted 09-24-2017 3:57 PM ringo has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 95 of 1540 (820583)
09-23-2017 2:33 PM
Reply to: Message 94 by ringo
09-23-2017 11:41 AM


Re: Salvation from Hell comes by Jesus Christ
You have a point, though why then not create more than simply two people? Why not create a whole planet full of them?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by ringo, posted 09-23-2017 11:41 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 97 by ringo, posted 09-24-2017 2:06 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
kbertsche
Member (Idle past 2131 days)
Posts: 1427
From: San Jose, CA, USA
Joined: 05-10-2007


(1)
Message 96 of 1540 (820593)
09-23-2017 10:08 PM
Reply to: Message 94 by ringo
09-23-2017 11:41 AM


Re: Salvation from Hell comes by Jesus Christ
Logically, eternal life and procreation don't mix. Logically, there's no point to male and female without procreation.
Agreed. That's why Jesus said that there is no marriage (implying no procreation) in heaven.

"Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." — Albert Einstein
I am very astonished that the scientific picture of the real world around me is very deficient. It gives us a lot of factual information, puts all of our experience in a magnificently consistent order, but it is ghastly silent about all and sundry that is really near to our heart, that really matters to us. It cannot tell us a word about red and blue, bitter and sweet, physical pain and physical delight; it knows nothing of beautiful and ugly, good or bad, God and eternity. Science sometimes pretends to answer questions in these domains, but the answers are very often so silly that we are not inclined to take them seriously. — Erwin Schroedinger

This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by ringo, posted 09-23-2017 11:41 AM ringo has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 100 by New Cat's Eye, posted 09-25-2017 10:06 AM kbertsche has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 97 of 1540 (820611)
09-24-2017 2:06 PM
Reply to: Message 95 by Phat
09-23-2017 2:33 PM


Re: Salvation from Hell comes by Jesus Christ
Phat writes:
... why then not create more than simply two people? Why not create a whole planet full of them?
You tell me.
It suggests to me that the story was never intended as an accurate portrayal of events.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by Phat, posted 09-23-2017 2:33 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 98 of 1540 (820617)
09-24-2017 3:57 PM
Reply to: Message 94 by ringo
09-23-2017 11:41 AM


Re: Salvation from Hell comes by Jesus Christ
ringo writes:
Logically, there's no point to male and female without procreation.
Sure there is. Ever heard of complementary? Male and Female are a type and shadow of God and humans. We symbolically marry Him, as His Bride.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
An atheist is someone who has no invisible means of support~Bishop Fulton J.Sheen

This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by ringo, posted 09-23-2017 11:41 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 99 by NoNukes, posted 09-24-2017 6:57 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 101 by ringo, posted 09-25-2017 11:48 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 99 of 1540 (820619)
09-24-2017 6:57 PM
Reply to: Message 98 by Phat
09-24-2017 3:57 PM


Re: Salvation from Hell comes by Jesus Christ
"Sure there is. Ever heard of complementary? Male and Female are a type and shadow of God and humans. We symbolically marry Him, as His Bride."
What understanding is gained by trying to model your relationship with Christ as spousal? I have heard of this before, but I find the idea absolutely bizarre.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I was thinking as long as I have my hands up they’re not going to shoot me. This is what I’m thinking they’re not going to shoot me. Wow, was I wrong. -- Charles Kinsey
We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.
Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith
I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 98 by Phat, posted 09-24-2017 3:57 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 104 by kbertsche, posted 09-25-2017 4:31 PM NoNukes has not replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 100 of 1540 (820681)
09-25-2017 10:06 AM
Reply to: Message 96 by kbertsche
09-23-2017 10:08 PM


Re: Salvation from Hell comes by Jesus Christ
Logically, eternal life and procreation don't mix. Logically, there's no point to male and female without procreation.
Agreed.
Wait, so if eternal life and procreation are mutually exclusive then; because God made Adam and Eve as male and female then He didn't intend for them to live forever.
Which makes sense that there was a Tree of Life that would make them live forever if they ate from it. That would be pointless if they already would live forever.
So do you agree that Adam and Eve were not created to live forever?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 96 by kbertsche, posted 09-23-2017 10:08 PM kbertsche has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 103 by kbertsche, posted 09-25-2017 4:26 PM New Cat's Eye has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 101 of 1540 (820690)
09-25-2017 11:48 AM
Reply to: Message 98 by Phat
09-24-2017 3:57 PM


Re: Salvation from Hell comes by Jesus Christ
Phat writes:
ringo writes:
Logically, there's no point to male and female without procreation.
Sure there is. Ever heard of complementary?
Male and female are complementary for the purpose of procreation, nothing else. The notion that one is "incomplete" without the other is what has caused oppression of women for millennia. Even if "pairing up" has some emotional/social value, the pairs don't need to be male and female.
Phat writes:
Male and Female are a type and shadow of God and humans. We symbolically marry Him, as His Bride.
Symbolism is not reality.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 98 by Phat, posted 09-24-2017 3:57 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
1.61803
Member (Idle past 1503 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


Message 102 of 1540 (820726)
09-25-2017 4:19 PM
Reply to: Message 64 by Tangle
09-22-2017 4:56 AM


Re: Substitute Strategies For Centering the Mind
Trying to do something sodding practical in the face of your roof being blown off. I suppose if soiling your knickers is practical then well played.

"You were not there for the beginning. You will not be there for the end. Your knowledge of what is going on can only be superficial and relative" William S. Burroughs

This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by Tangle, posted 09-22-2017 4:56 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 105 by Tangle, posted 09-25-2017 4:32 PM 1.61803 has replied

  
kbertsche
Member (Idle past 2131 days)
Posts: 1427
From: San Jose, CA, USA
Joined: 05-10-2007


Message 103 of 1540 (820728)
09-25-2017 4:26 PM
Reply to: Message 100 by New Cat's Eye
09-25-2017 10:06 AM


Re: Salvation from Hell comes by Jesus Christ
New Cat's Eye writes:
Wait, so if eternal life and procreation are mutually exclusive then; because God made Adam and Eve as male and female then He didn't intend for them to live forever.
Which makes sense that there was a Tree of Life that would make them live forever if they ate from it. That would be pointless if they already would live forever.
So do you agree that Adam and Eve were not created to live forever?
I agree that the omniscient God knew beforehand that His creatures would sin and that He would have to expel them from the Garden and not allow them to live forever in this sinful stare.

"Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." — Albert Einstein
I am very astonished that the scientific picture of the real world around me is very deficient. It gives us a lot of factual information, puts all of our experience in a magnificently consistent order, but it is ghastly silent about all and sundry that is really near to our heart, that really matters to us. It cannot tell us a word about red and blue, bitter and sweet, physical pain and physical delight; it knows nothing of beautiful and ugly, good or bad, God and eternity. Science sometimes pretends to answer questions in these domains, but the answers are very often so silly that we are not inclined to take them seriously. — Erwin Schroedinger

This message is a reply to:
 Message 100 by New Cat's Eye, posted 09-25-2017 10:06 AM New Cat's Eye has not replied

  
kbertsche
Member (Idle past 2131 days)
Posts: 1427
From: San Jose, CA, USA
Joined: 05-10-2007


Message 104 of 1540 (820729)
09-25-2017 4:31 PM
Reply to: Message 99 by NoNukes
09-24-2017 6:57 PM


Re: Salvation from Hell comes by Jesus Christ
NoNukes writes:
What understanding is gained by trying to model your relationship with Christ as spousal? I have heard of this before, but I find the idea absolutely bizarre.
See Eph 5:20-33. Similar husband-wife imagery was also frequently used of God and Israel in the Old Testament.

"Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." — Albert Einstein
I am very astonished that the scientific picture of the real world around me is very deficient. It gives us a lot of factual information, puts all of our experience in a magnificently consistent order, but it is ghastly silent about all and sundry that is really near to our heart, that really matters to us. It cannot tell us a word about red and blue, bitter and sweet, physical pain and physical delight; it knows nothing of beautiful and ugly, good or bad, God and eternity. Science sometimes pretends to answer questions in these domains, but the answers are very often so silly that we are not inclined to take them seriously. — Erwin Schroedinger

This message is a reply to:
 Message 99 by NoNukes, posted 09-24-2017 6:57 PM NoNukes has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 105 of 1540 (820730)
09-25-2017 4:32 PM
Reply to: Message 102 by 1.61803
09-25-2017 4:19 PM


Re: Substitute Strategies For Centering the Mind
1.6 writes:
Trying to do something sodding practical in the face of your roof being blown off. I suppose if soiling your knickers is practical then well played.
Well that was helpful.
The second half of what I said was hope for the best. ie sometimes there's nothing left to be done. At that time you might as well pray as do anything else; everything is equally useless.
Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 102 by 1.61803, posted 09-25-2017 4:19 PM 1.61803 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 106 by 1.61803, posted 09-25-2017 5:03 PM Tangle has not replied

  
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