|
Register | Sign In |
|
QuickSearch
Thread ▼ Details |
Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
|
Thread Info
|
|
|
Author | Topic: The Tension of Faith | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Aussie Member Posts: 275 From: FL USA Joined: |
Logically, God wouldnt particularly want creatures living forever that wanted nothing to do with Him. Hey Phat! I'm sorry, I know you weren't talking to me, but is it logical that the best other option to me not wanting to spend time with Him is...Him burning me in eternal flame? What about a different option? Maybe for all those who choose not to be with Him, perhaps they just die? Eternal oblivion as if we never existed? Like we were before we were born? I mean, why is eternal suffering the best option? It just seems to cut across that gorgeous Psalm where it says "His mercies are new every morning." Unless you choose not to follow Him. Then watch out. "...heck is a small price to pay for the truth"
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Percy Member Posts: 22388 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 5.2 |
My initial reaction to your post kind of echos Tangle where he says in Message 67, "Another contentless reply. What ARE you talking about?". But maybe there's some kind of disconnect, so let me try again.
NoNukes writes: I commented about a specific statement by Tangle. I thought I was commenting on the same statement, the one I quoted from Tangle's Message 37 in my Message 50, the one that goes like this:
Tangle in Message 37 writes: And you don't think that this is the most bizarre and evil idea that has ever been thought? God creates man to live a short and brutal life ending in eternal torture. After a few thousand years of hell filling up he has second thoughts and sends his son to earth to be killed in order to save a small percentage of the population allowing the remaining billions to enjoy eternal torture regardless of how decently they live their lives. It's utterly preposterous. You responded in Message 38:
NoNukes in Message 38 writes: Actually, that is not the story in Genesis. Genesis says that man was created to live eternally, but due to his own screw-ups lost his unending life on earth. Where Hell came from really is not discussed in Genesis or much of anywhere else in the Bible. I think you can still make a logical conundrum out of all this, but you haven't done that yet. But it seems to Tangle and me that you have a different view on all this than Faith does, and Tangle is trying to have a discussion with Faith. You might disagree with Tangle's description, but he does seem to have captured Faith's position pretty accurately (the vast preponderance of humanity is condemned to hell), and he does seem to have a rational opinion (it's cruel, heartless, unworthy of any God worth worshiping, preposterous). Unless you're talking about something else Tangle said, I don't see why you have a problem with what Tangle is saying. --Percy
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1
|
Actually Aussie--you have a good point. I've always wondered why ceasing to exist was not offered to those who failed to make the cut---it would be more humane.
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith "as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 411 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
Logically, eternal life and procreation don't mix. Logically, there's no point to male and female without procreation.
Logically, God wouldnt particularly want creatures living forever that wanted nothing to do with Him.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
You have a point, though why then not create more than simply two people? Why not create a whole planet full of them?
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith "as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
kbertsche Member (Idle past 2131 days) Posts: 1427 From: San Jose, CA, USA Joined:
|
Logically, eternal life and procreation don't mix. Logically, there's no point to male and female without procreation.
Agreed. That's why Jesus said that there is no marriage (implying no procreation) in heaven."Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." — Albert Einstein I am very astonished that the scientific picture of the real world around me is very deficient. It gives us a lot of factual information, puts all of our experience in a magnificently consistent order, but it is ghastly silent about all and sundry that is really near to our heart, that really matters to us. It cannot tell us a word about red and blue, bitter and sweet, physical pain and physical delight; it knows nothing of beautiful and ugly, good or bad, God and eternity. Science sometimes pretends to answer questions in these domains, but the answers are very often so silly that we are not inclined to take them seriously. — Erwin Schroedinger
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 411 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
You tell me. ... why then not create more than simply two people? Why not create a whole planet full of them? It suggests to me that the story was never intended as an accurate portrayal of events.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
ringo writes: Sure there is. Ever heard of complementary? Male and Female are a type and shadow of God and humans. We symbolically marry Him, as His Bride. Logically, there's no point to male and female without procreation.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith An atheist is someone who has no invisible means of support~Bishop Fulton J.Sheen
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
NoNukes Inactive Member |
"Sure there is. Ever heard of complementary? Male and Female are a type and shadow of God and humans. We symbolically marry Him, as His Bride."
What understanding is gained by trying to model your relationship with Christ as spousal? I have heard of this before, but I find the idea absolutely bizarre. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) I was thinking as long as I have my hands up they’re not going to shoot me. This is what I’m thinking they’re not going to shoot me. Wow, was I wrong. -- Charles Kinsey We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World. Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
Logically, eternal life and procreation don't mix. Logically, there's no point to male and female without procreation.
Agreed. Wait, so if eternal life and procreation are mutually exclusive then; because God made Adam and Eve as male and female then He didn't intend for them to live forever. Which makes sense that there was a Tree of Life that would make them live forever if they ate from it. That would be pointless if they already would live forever. So do you agree that Adam and Eve were not created to live forever?
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 411 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
Male and female are complementary for the purpose of procreation, nothing else. The notion that one is "incomplete" without the other is what has caused oppression of women for millennia. Even if "pairing up" has some emotional/social value, the pairs don't need to be male and female.
ringo writes:
Sure there is. Ever heard of complementary? Logically, there's no point to male and female without procreation. Phat writes:
Symbolism is not reality.
Male and Female are a type and shadow of God and humans. We symbolically marry Him, as His Bride.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
1.61803 Member (Idle past 1503 days) Posts: 2928 From: Lone Star State USA Joined: |
Trying to do something sodding practical in the face of your roof being blown off. I suppose if soiling your knickers is practical then well played.
"You were not there for the beginning. You will not be there for the end. Your knowledge of what is going on can only be superficial and relative" William S. Burroughs
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
kbertsche Member (Idle past 2131 days) Posts: 1427 From: San Jose, CA, USA Joined: |
New Cat's Eye writes:
I agree that the omniscient God knew beforehand that His creatures would sin and that He would have to expel them from the Garden and not allow them to live forever in this sinful stare. Wait, so if eternal life and procreation are mutually exclusive then; because God made Adam and Eve as male and female then He didn't intend for them to live forever. Which makes sense that there was a Tree of Life that would make them live forever if they ate from it. That would be pointless if they already would live forever. So do you agree that Adam and Eve were not created to live forever?"Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." — Albert Einstein I am very astonished that the scientific picture of the real world around me is very deficient. It gives us a lot of factual information, puts all of our experience in a magnificently consistent order, but it is ghastly silent about all and sundry that is really near to our heart, that really matters to us. It cannot tell us a word about red and blue, bitter and sweet, physical pain and physical delight; it knows nothing of beautiful and ugly, good or bad, God and eternity. Science sometimes pretends to answer questions in these domains, but the answers are very often so silly that we are not inclined to take them seriously. — Erwin Schroedinger
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
kbertsche Member (Idle past 2131 days) Posts: 1427 From: San Jose, CA, USA Joined: |
NoNukes writes:
See Eph 5:20-33. Similar husband-wife imagery was also frequently used of God and Israel in the Old Testament. What understanding is gained by trying to model your relationship with Christ as spousal? I have heard of this before, but I find the idea absolutely bizarre."Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." — Albert Einstein I am very astonished that the scientific picture of the real world around me is very deficient. It gives us a lot of factual information, puts all of our experience in a magnificently consistent order, but it is ghastly silent about all and sundry that is really near to our heart, that really matters to us. It cannot tell us a word about red and blue, bitter and sweet, physical pain and physical delight; it knows nothing of beautiful and ugly, good or bad, God and eternity. Science sometimes pretends to answer questions in these domains, but the answers are very often so silly that we are not inclined to take them seriously. — Erwin Schroedinger
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Tangle Member Posts: 9489 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.9
|
1.6 writes: Trying to do something sodding practical in the face of your roof being blown off. I suppose if soiling your knickers is practical then well played. Well that was helpful. The second half of what I said was hope for the best. ie sometimes there's nothing left to be done. At that time you might as well pray as do anything else; everything is equally useless. Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
|
|
|
Do Nothing Button
Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved
Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024