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Author Topic:   "The Flood" deposits as a sea transgressive/regressive sequence ("Walther's Law")
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 106 of 224 (820837)
09-28-2017 6:07 AM
Reply to: Message 98 by Taq
09-27-2017 5:16 PM


Re: the evidence against the Geo Time Scale and for the Flood is overwhelming
They aren't going to bend neatly as a block if they are completely lithified. That they do bend together as a unit is evidence that they were all malleable, all of the same age, not millions of years apart.

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PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 107 of 224 (820840)
09-28-2017 6:20 AM
Reply to: Message 105 by Faith
09-28-2017 6:03 AM


Re: the evidence against the Geo Time Scale and for the Flood is overwhelming
quote:
Because that best explains what is seen on the GS-GC cross section.
No, it doesn't. As has been shown in previous discussions. Multiple events separated by long periods of time works much better to actually explain the evidence.

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 Message 105 by Faith, posted 09-28-2017 6:03 AM Faith has replied

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 108 of 224 (820841)
09-28-2017 6:25 AM
Reply to: Message 97 by edge
09-27-2017 5:13 PM


Re: the evidence against the Geo Time Scale and for the Flood is overwhelming
Also where there is tectonic deformation, with the one exception of angular unconformities, the strata are defomed in a whole block of them at once.
You have never provided evidence for this. You have only repeated the claim over and over.
I don't remember but I think I must have posted pictures of what I have in mind. The hard thing would be to find a case where they didn't deform in blocks. There is no such thing as one layer being deformed in a different way from the others above and below it. There is no such thing as different layers all being deformed in different ways, but that is what one would expect would happen if each was laid down in a separate time frame millions of years from all the others and tectonically deformed in its own time frame.
Just a few examples of strata all laid down horizontally before being deformed altogether in a block by a tectonic event.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 109 of 224 (820842)
09-28-2017 6:29 AM
Reply to: Message 107 by PaulK
09-28-2017 6:20 AM


Re: the evidence against the Geo Time Scale and for the Flood is overwhelming
I'm so sorry, but I disagree with you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 107 by PaulK, posted 09-28-2017 6:20 AM PaulK has replied

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 110 of 224 (820844)
09-28-2017 6:34 AM
Reply to: Message 95 by edge
09-27-2017 4:58 PM


Re: The geologic "created kind"
Oh I may hope but I don't really expect anybody to take anything I say seriously now because your heads are all wrapped up in the established errors of current Geology, but if the world continues for a while, and who knows, eventually I would think the truth might win out.
Actually I don't get most of what you are saying in that post anyway, it doesn't make sense.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 111 of 224 (820845)
09-28-2017 6:36 AM
Reply to: Message 109 by Faith
09-28-2017 6:29 AM


Re: the evidence against the Geo Time Scale and for the Flood is overwhelming
If you choose to disagree with obvious truths that is up to you. But it hardly makes a convincing argument. You really would do better here if you made more of an effort to get things right.

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 Message 109 by Faith, posted 09-28-2017 6:29 AM Faith has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 112 of 224 (820846)
09-28-2017 6:40 AM
Reply to: Message 92 by Taq
09-27-2017 4:35 PM


Re: The geologic "created kind"
70% of the Earth is currently seeing this type of deposition.
Not happening the way the Stratigraphic Column was built. It was not built in basins or at the bottom of the sea, the strata were laid out flat and horizontal, and that is not happening now. The Stratigraphic Column is over and done with. It was all laid down in the Single event of the Flood, one layer after another over a period of about a year, it's done.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 113 of 224 (820847)
09-28-2017 6:42 AM
Reply to: Message 88 by Taq
09-27-2017 4:28 PM


Re: The geologic "created kind"
Nothing you've posted even touches on my model.

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PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 114 of 224 (820848)
09-28-2017 6:44 AM
Reply to: Message 112 by Faith
09-28-2017 6:40 AM


Re: The geologic "created kind"
quote:
Not happening the way the Stratigraphic Column was built. It was not built in basins or at the bottom of the sea,
Plenty of it was. How can you not know that ?

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 Message 112 by Faith, posted 09-28-2017 6:40 AM Faith has replied

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 115 of 224 (820849)
09-28-2017 7:34 AM
Reply to: Message 114 by PaulK
09-28-2017 6:44 AM


Re: The geologic "created kind"None
None of it was, it was all laid down in the Flood, one on top of another one after another. Look at them, they are all identical in form among all the other evidence I've given for the Flood and against the Geo Time Scale.

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PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


(1)
Message 116 of 224 (820851)
09-28-2017 7:47 AM
Reply to: Message 115 by Faith
09-28-2017 7:34 AM


Re: The geologic "created kind"None
quote:
None of it was, it was all laid down in the Flood, one on top of another one after another.
That's your assumption, but the evidence says otherwise.
quote:
Look at them, they are all identical in form among all the other evidence I've given for the Flood and against the Geo Time Scale.
Maybe you should listen to the people who actually look at them, rather than relying on a few photographs which almost always show only a cross-section and often make it hard to pick out details.

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 Message 115 by Faith, posted 09-28-2017 7:34 AM Faith has not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 117 of 224 (820853)
09-28-2017 7:56 AM
Reply to: Message 103 by Faith
09-28-2017 5:55 AM


Re: The geologic "created (rock) kind" and evidence that is a little squirrely
No, you see nothing like what I'm describing, you see no massive erosion between any layers, and there should be a lot between all of them if the standard interpretation is true. That would be visible from miles away and would distort the layers beyond recognition. That doesn't exist but without it there is nothing at all to suggest there was ever such a thing as a time period of millions of years anywhere in those layers.
Sadly, for you, denial does not make the evidence go away. Your personal opinion has no effect on the actual evidence of old age of the earth.
Sorry about the Kaibab squirrel. ...
But it is emblematic of how well you research your evidence ... you just grab the first thing that looks like what you want.
... I can't find a map of the geographic extent of the Kaibab limestone, but I found this description at Wikipedia for "Kaibab Limestone":
Again you only take the part that interests you.
quote:
Kaibab Limestone
The Kaibab Limestone is a resistant cliff-forming, Permian geologic formation that crops out across the U.S. states of northern Arizona, southern Utah, east central Nevada and southeast California. It is also known as the Kaibab Formation in Arizona, Nevada, and Utah. The Kaibab Limestone forms the rim of the Grand Canyon. In the Big Maria Mountains, California, the Kaibab Limestone is highly metamorphosed* and known as the Kaibab Marble.[2][3]
quote:
* Metamorphic rocks arise from the transformation of existing rock types, in a process called metamorphism, which means "change in form".[1] The original rock (protolith) is subjected to heat (temperatures greater than 150 to 200 C) and pressure (150 megapascals (1,500 bar))[clarify],[2] causing profound physical or chemical change. The protolith may be a sedimentary, an igneous, or even an existing type of metamorphic rock.
Metamorphic rocks make up a large part of the Earth's crust and form 12% of the Earth's current land surface.[3] They are classified by texture and by chemical and mineral assemblage (metamorphic facies). They may be formed simply by being deep beneath the Earth's surface, subjected to high temperatures and the great pressure of the rock layers above it. They can form from tectonic processes such as continental collisions, which cause horizontal pressure, friction and distortion. They are also formed when rock is heated up by the intrusion of hot molten rock called magma from the Earth's interior. The study of metamorphic rocks (now exposed at the Earth's surface following erosion and uplift) provides information about the temperatures and pressures that occur at great depths within the Earth's crust. Some examples of metamorphic rocks are gneiss, slate, marble, schist, and quartzite.
Can you explain how your magic carpet flying flood makes metamorphic rock in one location and not in another?
quote:
Kaibab Limestone: Description
The Kaibab Limestone is a diverse assemblage of sedimentary rock types. It consists of a complexity of interfingering and interbedded carbonate and siliciclastic* sedimentary rocks. In addition, intense post-depositional (diagenetic) changes have created more composition variation by the alteration of limestone to dolostone and the silicification of limestone to form chert. In the western Grand Canyon region, the Fossil Mountain Member consists of fossiliferous and cherty limestone with an abundant and diverse normal-marine fossil fauna. Further east in the Coconino Plateau region, the lithology, mineralogy, and fauna of the Fossil Mountain Member changes drastically where it grades laterally into sandy dolostone and dolostone that contains a restricted-marine fossil fauna and subordinate amounts of sandstone.The Harrisburg Member, which forms the uppermost cliffs and receding ledges along both north and south rims of the Grand Canyon, consists of an assemblage of gypsum, dolostone, sandstone, redbeds, chert, and minor limestone.[1][2][3][6]
quote:
* Siliciclastic rocks (commonly misspelled siliclastic) are clastic noncarbonate sedimentary rocks that are almost exclusively silica-bearing, either as forms of quartz or other silicate minerals. All siliciclastic rocks are formed by inorganic processes, or deposited through some mechanical process, such as stream deposits (delta deposits) that are subsequently lithified. They are sandstone based rocks accounting for about 50 - 60% of the world oil and gas exploration.The other silicate minerals that are generally present in siliciclastic sedimentary rocks are feldspar, biotite etc....
Sounds (a) like the diverse assemblage of materials you described for non-flood sedimentation and (b) the gradation of material described by Walther's Law (more on this later).
quote:
Contacts
Within the Grand Canyon region, the Kaibab Limestone overlies gypsum and contorted sandstones of the Toroweap Formation. Originally, geologists interpreted the lower contact of the Kaibab Limestone to be an unconformity based on the presence of local intraformational breccias and erosional surfaces.[6] However, additional research has concluded that these local intraformational breccias and erosional surfaces are the result of collapse following the dissolution of evaporite deposits* within the upper part of the Toroweap Formation. As a result, this contact is inferred to be conformable or only locally a disconformity. South and east of the Grand Canyon, the evaporites and contorted sandstones (sabkha deposits) of Toroweap Formation interfinger with and are replaced by cross-bedded sandstones of the Coconino Sandstone. As a result, the Kaibab Limestone directly overlies the Coconino Sandstone in the Mogollon Rim region. The Kaibab Limestone directly overlies the White Rim Sandstone in northeastern Arizona and southeastern Utah.[1][6]
quote:
* Evaporite ( /ɪˈvpəraɪt/) is a name for a water-soluble mineral sediment that results from concentration and crystallization by evaporation from an aqueous solution.[1] There are two types of evaporite deposits: marine, which can also be described as ocean deposits, and non-marine, which are found in standing bodies of water such as lakes. Evaporites are considered sedimentary rocks and are formed by chemical sediments.
... When scientists evaporate ocean water in a laboratory, the minerals are deposited in a defined order that was first demonstrated by Usiglio in 1884.[2] The first phase of the experiment begins when about 50% of the original water depth remains. At this point, minor carbonates begin to form.[2] The next phase in the sequence comes when the experiment is left with about 20% of its original level. At this point, the mineral gypsum begins to form, which is then followed by halite at 10%,[2] ...
Can you explain how your magic carpet flying flood makes evaporites in one location and not in another? Can you explain how your magic carpet flying flood makes evaporites between layers of sediment deposition? Can you explain how your magic carpet flying flood even makes evaporites at all?
quote:
Kaibab Limestone: Fossils
The Kaibab Limestone contains the abundant fossils of Permian invertebrates and vertebrates. The invertebrate fossils found within the Kaibab Limestone include brachiopods, conodonts, corals, crinoids, echinoid spines, mollusks, hexactinellid and other sponges, trilobites, and burrows of callanassid shrimp. The fossil cephalopods found in the Kaibab Limestone include giant football-sized nautiloids.[1][6] Fossil shark teeth, which represent a diverse assemblage of chondrichthyans, occur within the Kaibab Limestone of Arizona.[6][9][10]
We've talked before about how fragile fossils are preserved in the geological record, and here we have them again, in one of the later deposits of your purported magic carpet flying flood, which has gone through your most extreme destructive phases.
Can you explain how your magic carpet flying flood only places Permian invertebrates and vertebrates in the Kaibab formation?
quote:
Kaibab Limestone: Depositional Environments
The complex intercalation of carbonate and clastic sediments within the Kaibab Limestone reflects the deposition of sediments within a gently sloping continental margin during a period of frequent, high-frequency sea level changes. Relatively minor changes in sea level caused major lateral shifts in the position of supratidal, subtidal, and shallow-marine environments during the deposition of the Kaibab Limestone. The shifting sea levels and associated depositional environments created a complex interlayering of different types of carbonate and clastic sediments in the strata that comprise the Kaibab Limestone. The gently sloping continental margin, on which the Kaibab Limestone accumulated, extended seaward from northern Arizona to southern Nevada, at times exceeding 200 miles (125 km) in width. It is most likely that the high-frequency changes in sea level were caused by glacial-eustatic sea level oscillations during this time period.[1]
Whoo Boyo ... that sure sounds like Walther's Law again. Especially when you superimpose this depositional environment on top of a layer of evaporites ...
Can you explain how your magic carpet flying flood mimics this depositional environment evidence -- with frequent shifts in water depths over period long enough for the specific types of sediment to form distinguishable layers?
It seems to me that the Kaibab Limestone formation is no friend to your magic carpet flying flood concept -- it raises more questions than answers to how this formation could possibly form during your purported magic carpet flying flood event.
No, you see nothing like what I'm describing, you see no massive erosion between any layers, and there should be a lot between all of them if the standard interpretation is true. That would be visible from miles away and would distort the layers beyond recognition. ...
Why?
A lot of what between them?
This seems to be your personal version of "the standard interpretation" that you argue against (ie - a straw man) and not any actual geological science interpretation of the actual evidence.
Enjoy

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This message is a reply to:
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


(1)
Message 118 of 224 (820857)
09-28-2017 8:58 AM
Reply to: Message 103 by Faith
09-28-2017 5:55 AM


Re: The geologic "created (rock) kind" and evidence that is a little squirrely
... I can't find a map of the geographic extent of the Kaibab limestone, but I found this description at Wikipedia for "Kaibab Limestone":
Let me help you a little:
quote:
Kaibab Limestone
Age:
Early Permian, 250 million years ago
Depositional Environment:
Shallow Marine Shelf Deposit
Paleogeography:
Sediment deposition was influenced by the Uncompahgre Uplift (ancestral Rocky Mountains), but by the end of the Permian, the Uncompahgre mountains had been worn down and was not longer a major sediment source.
Tectonics:
Collision of the Gondwana Plate with the Northern Plate resulted in the Uncompahgre highland.
Climate:
Warm current winds
Figure 1: Paleogeographic map of the Middle Permian, Kaibab Formation. (Blakey, 2008)
Features:
The Kaibab Limestone is composed of impure cherty limestone and dolomite that interfinger with the White Rim Sandstone below it (Mathis, 2000). The Kaibab rocks range in color from gray, buff, and brown, to yellow/brown dolomite. Some sandy, carbonate beds are very fossiliferous (Condon, 1997). Invertebrate fossils include brachiopods, pelecypods, gastropods, crinoids, and bryozoans. The Kaibab formation in Capitol Reef National Park is only 0-200’ thick and but thickens to 300-500’ in the Grand Canyon (Morris, 2003). The difference in thickness is attributed to erosion. The environmental setting for the Kaibab Limestone was a shallow marine shelf deposit that represents the time of maximum eastward transgression of the Kaibab Sea (Condon, 1997). The Kaibab Sea began to withdraw by the Middle Permian, which left these sediments exposed to be subject to erosion (Condon, 1997). The Kaibab Limestone is visible at the Goosenecks Overlook in Capitol Reef National Park.

Disclaimer: The information is property of the University of Utah. Unless cited, images and files found on this site have been taken or created by the Geology and Geophysics Department at the University of Utah. Any use of these images should be cited appropriately. The stratigraphic column is from: Mathis, A. C. 2000. Capitol Reef National Park and Vicinity Geologic Road Logs, Utah, in: P.B. Anderson and D.A. Sprinkel (eds.) Geologic Road, Trail, and Lake Guides to Utah’s Parks and Monuments Utah Geological Association Publication 29. http://www.utahgeology.org/uga29Titles.htm
Copyright (c) 2010, Geology and Geophysics Department, The University of Utah

"Shallow Marine Shelf Deposit" -- so we are back to Walther's Law again, providing the best explanation for the types of material this formation is composed of -- and we even have a worn away mountain range to provide erosional material for the formation -- the Uncompahgre mountains.
But the big questions I have for you are:
(1) Why is there a boundary/edge to this formation (and by extension, why are there boundaries/edges to ALL formations) if they are laid down in the world wide depositional environment of your purported magic flying carpet flood?
(2) Why are there older formations that underlie this formation but rise to heights that appear to block its eastward extent if all the layers are laid down in a continuous flat process of your purported magic flying carpet flood?
... you see no massive erosion between any layers, and there should be a lot between all of them if the standard interpretation is true. That would be visible from miles away and would distort the layers beyond recognition. ...
(3) Why would a seabed deposition always undergo massive erosion between layers that are explained by Walther's Law, and why would there necessarily always be distortion of these seabeds if the earth is old?
Inquiring minds want to know.
Enjoy

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This message is a reply to:
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Percy
Member
Posts: 22391
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


(1)
Message 119 of 224 (820858)
09-28-2017 9:03 AM
Reply to: Message 89 by Faith
09-27-2017 4:30 PM


Re: OE assumptions
Faith writes:
Actually, the main thing is that there isn't a sane reason at all for there even to BE any strata to "evidence long periods of deposition." Why should there be ANY flat straight sedimentary rocks at all, let alone neatly stacked miles deep as we see for instance in the Grand Canyon?
Most of the strata in the walls of the Grand Canyon are marine. They are flat and straight because lake and sea beds tend to be flat and straight, and a continual rain of sediments evens out any irregularities.
If you have continual deposition say from eroding mountains why should it be of any identifiable sediment rather than the tumble-down lumpy surface we see around us today?
You live in Nevada. Here's an image of the Ruby Mountain Range viewed from the plains surrounding it:
The mountains in the distance will never be preserved in the geological record. That's because mountains are regions of net erosion, not deposition. The mountains are being gradually eroded away into fine particles that are eventually deposited on the very flat plains you see in the foreground. The only elements in this image that have even a prayer of being preserved in the geological record (i.e., buried) are the flat plains. Lake and sea bottoms, also mostly flat, have an even better chance of being buried and preserved in the geological record. That's why the strata you see are mostly flat.
The idea that there is eventually going to be another layer to commemorate today's "time period" with appropriate fossils is absurd,...
No, it isn't absurd. It is precisely what one would expect given how natural processes work, which we understand very well since we can observe these natural processes taking place today before our very eyes. The appropriate adjective here is not "absurd" but other adjectives like "ignorance", "obtuseness" and "incomprehension". How strata deposit in the real world has been explained to you many, many times, including in this thread, and yet you continue arguing as if you hadn't read or understood a single word.
For the Geological Time Scale to be true, there should not be a Stratigraphic Column AT ALL.
Given that the present is the key to the past, and given that in the present sediments continue to deposit at the lowest points the world over, columns of strata is exactly what we should expect to find, along with increasing radiometric age with increasing depth, and increasing difference of fossils from modern forms with increasing depth.
What we would expect from a flood is undifferentiated mud and debris.
--Percy
Edited by Percy, : Grammar.

This message is a reply to:
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edge
Member (Idle past 1706 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 120 of 224 (820863)
09-28-2017 9:20 AM
Reply to: Message 105 by Faith
09-28-2017 6:03 AM


Re: the evidence against the Geo Time Scale and for the Flood is overwhelming
First of all, why does it have to be one event?
Because that best explains what is seen on the GS-GC cross section.
So, you still think that the Colorado Plateau geology represents the rest of the world.
This is wrong.
But even accepting your premise that it does, the section shows me at least two tectonic events prior to the Paleozoic.
I believe your geological training is insufficient to determine anything about the section.

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