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Author Topic:   The Tension of Faith
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 151 of 1540 (821358)
10-06-2017 8:06 AM
Reply to: Message 147 by Phat
10-06-2017 3:56 AM


Re: where the tension lies
Limited atonement is strictly based on the Bible as are all of Calvin's teachings but it's complicated arguing all that so I'd rather not get into it beyond saying that we need to be careful not to confuse what God does with our own personal feelings and beliefs. God's choosing us and directing our beliefs is beyond our ability to experience or even understand. If we believe we believe and we don't need to believe that God is directing us to believe. Arminianism works fine on the level of personal belief and experience, but it is false on the level of the theology of God's perspective. I think it was Luther who said that predestination and election shouldn't be taught except to very mature knowledgeable believers, and even then we might be better off not thinking a lot about it. The problem is our inability to understand the mind of God. Nevertheless the concepts ARE in scripture.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 147 by Phat, posted 10-06-2017 3:56 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 152 by Phat, posted 10-06-2017 8:21 AM Faith has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 152 of 1540 (821359)
10-06-2017 8:21 AM
Reply to: Message 151 by Faith
10-06-2017 8:06 AM


Are All Called?
But how do you know its true. A lot of things can be said to be based on the Bible. Besides, an equal number of examples support Arminianism. A few years ago I would have had no reason to challenge such belief for it was in line with what was taught. I have since learned that it is no sin to question the Bible nor God.
Does it really make sense that God has only chosen some and not all?
Faith writes:
The problem is our inability to understand the mind of God.
Its hard enough to understand our own mind! But is it wise to ignore non-believers or even immature believers with lots of questions? Does not the Bible even tell us to be ready in season and out to provide a defense of the faith? I cant simply accept the answer that Gods sovereign Will is beyond my understanding.
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
An atheist is someone who has no invisible means of support~Bishop Fulton J.Sheen

This message is a reply to:
 Message 151 by Faith, posted 10-06-2017 8:06 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 153 by Faith, posted 10-06-2017 8:28 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 155 by jar, posted 10-06-2017 9:39 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 153 of 1540 (821360)
10-06-2017 8:28 AM
Reply to: Message 152 by Phat
10-06-2017 8:21 AM


Re: Are All Called?
I'm not ignoring questions, I'm giving answers that you and others don't like.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 152 by Phat, posted 10-06-2017 8:21 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 154 by Pressie, posted 10-06-2017 8:55 AM Faith has not replied

  
Pressie
Member
Posts: 2103
From: Pretoria, SA
Joined: 06-18-2010


Message 154 of 1540 (821362)
10-06-2017 8:55 AM
Reply to: Message 153 by Faith
10-06-2017 8:28 AM


aaaAAAARe: Are All Called?
Bwaaaaah!
The heaviest and biggest substances settle out first.
Put stuff into blender. The heavier and densest particles settle at the bottom. Then it grades to the top. All in one layer. Grading from the heaviiest at the bottom top the lightest at the top.
You seem to have gone crazy, Faith.
Edited by Pressie, : No reason given.
Edited by Pressie, : No reason given.
Edited by Pressie, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 153 by Faith, posted 10-06-2017 8:28 AM Faith has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 395 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 155 of 1540 (821363)
10-06-2017 9:39 AM
Reply to: Message 152 by Phat
10-06-2017 8:21 AM


Re: Are All Called?
Phat writes:
Does it really make sense that God has only chosen some and not all?
Remember, according to the Bible Jesus says that if you think you are chosen, if you think you are his followers, you are wrong.
Now according to the Bible those are teachings straight from Jesus, not from John, not from Paul, not From Peter, not from Calvin, not from Luther, not from Knox, not from Henry, not from James, not from a Pope but from Jesus directly.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 152 by Phat, posted 10-06-2017 8:21 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
kbertsche
Member (Idle past 2132 days)
Posts: 1427
From: San Jose, CA, USA
Joined: 05-10-2007


(2)
Message 156 of 1540 (821365)
10-06-2017 10:04 AM
Reply to: Message 145 by Phat
10-05-2017 9:30 PM


Re: where the tension lies
Phat writes:
OK let's settle this. Does the Bible clearly say that God chooses or does the issue imply that humans choose?
The Bible seems to teach both, so I think we need to accept that both are true in some way. Since the issue involves an omniscient, omnipotent God who is outside of time and knows the future perfectly, it becomes very difficult for us to wrap our heads around.
Just a few brief comments:
1) the Bible teaches BOTH that "whosoever will may come" to Christ, AND that those who come to Christ have been "chosen before the foundation of the world".
2) Calvin himself said something like, "Christ's death is SUFFICIENT to save all, but is EFFICIENT to save only the elect.". He saw both sides of the issue, too.
3) The Bible is clear that salvation is a gift completely from God, not due to our own works, deeds, or actions (Eph 2:8-9; Titus 3:5).
4) We are not saved BY faith, but THROUGH faith. The "power" for salvation is not in faith, but in Christ's work. We are saved BY Jesus' substitutionary death on our behalf.
Edited by kbertsche, : No reason given.

"Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." — Albert Einstein
I am very astonished that the scientific picture of the real world around me is very deficient. It gives us a lot of factual information, puts all of our experience in a magnificently consistent order, but it is ghastly silent about all and sundry that is really near to our heart, that really matters to us. It cannot tell us a word about red and blue, bitter and sweet, physical pain and physical delight; it knows nothing of beautiful and ugly, good or bad, God and eternity. Science sometimes pretends to answer questions in these domains, but the answers are very often so silly that we are not inclined to take them seriously. — Erwin Schroedinger

This message is a reply to:
 Message 145 by Phat, posted 10-05-2017 9:30 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 157 of 1540 (821366)
10-06-2017 10:33 AM
Reply to: Message 150 by Faith
10-06-2017 7:56 AM


Re: Conversations with Faith on faith.
You can't have any idea of Christ without the Bible.
Then how did the early believers become believers...before there even was a Bible? When I first became a believer, it was almost as if I git knocked to the ground, it was so clear. I would never have questioned it nearly as much were it not for EvC. I've been in some good Bible Studies also, and nobody ever questions anything there. I never understood why Christians don't question things more once they get saved.I was always warned that in so doing I was getting in the way of new believers and should thus keep quiet.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
An atheist is someone who has no invisible means of support~Bishop Fulton J.Sheen

This message is a reply to:
 Message 150 by Faith, posted 10-06-2017 7:56 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 158 by Faith, posted 10-06-2017 11:53 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 158 of 1540 (821376)
10-06-2017 11:53 AM
Reply to: Message 157 by Phat
10-06-2017 10:33 AM


Re: Conversations with Faith on faith.
You can't have any idea of Christ without the Bible. v
Then how did the early believers become believers...before there even was a Bible?
When was that? In Jesus' time they had the Old Testament which is full of prophecy of the Messiah God was going to send. That's how they knew the time had come for Him to appear, those who DID know that anyway, who knew the scriptures. When Jesus asked them who He was and they knew He was the Messiah, that's because they knew the Old Testament prophecies. Remember Anna and Simeon who spent all their time in the temple, knowing the Messiah was due? Remember Jesus telling the two disciples on the way to Emmaus that scripture is clear that the Messiah must suffer? Not all understood the scriptures rightly which is why so many didn't recognize Him as the Messiah, so they had to be taught, but it IS all there, and those who followed Him learned about Him firsthand: that's what got written down as the gospels and the whole New Testament.
When I first became a believer, it was almost as if I git knocked to the ground, it was so clear. I would never have questioned it nearly as much were it not for EvC.
For me becoming a believer was somewhat similar. Before I knew anything about the Bible or Christ or salvation I got hit as if by a lightning bolt with the certainty that God is real, and that came from some Hindu teachers, not Christians. I was standing in a New Age bookstore skimming through some Hindu books, and they all talked about God as a reality that could be experienced. I felt like I was riveted to the floor by this lightning bolt. But that was just the beginning. After I got my feet unglued and left the bookstore (in a state of amazement, almost floating out the door) I had months ahead of me of reading to come to believe in Christ through God's word, and it became clear to me that the Bible MUST be God's word because otherwise we would be completely in the dark about these things.
I've been in some good Bible Studies also, and nobody ever questions anything there. I never understood why Christians don't question things more once they get saved.I was always warned that in so doing I was getting in the way of new believers and should thus keep quiet.
Once you know the Bible is God's word and MUST be God's word because otherwise we really are at the mercy of our fallen minds and the "helpfulness" of demons who love to trip us up, once you know that how can you question it? All you can do is rely on it, take it as your authority and teacher. That's what it's for. Without it all kinds of religions are invented that have some partial truths but a lot of demonic "help" as well. The Bible is God's gift to us to teach us the truth about Himself and the Moral Law and the nature of sin and God's Judgments and Christ and salvation, and to keep us from the errors of our fallen minds. You DO mislead new believers by questioning it. There is no other source of reliable information about God.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 157 by Phat, posted 10-06-2017 10:33 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 159 by Paboss, posted 10-06-2017 8:13 PM Faith has replied
 Message 269 by Stile, posted 10-11-2017 10:44 AM Faith has replied

  
Paboss
Member (Idle past 1766 days)
Posts: 55
Joined: 10-01-2017


Message 159 of 1540 (821401)
10-06-2017 8:13 PM
Reply to: Message 158 by Faith
10-06-2017 11:53 AM


Re: Conversations with Faith on faith.
Hi everyone,
If the bible was the word of God it shouldn't be a problem to question it, because every question would have a good answer. But that is not what happen with it. How can a book that's full of contradictions, atrocities and absurdities be the word of an omniscient and all benevolent being?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 158 by Faith, posted 10-06-2017 11:53 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 160 by jar, posted 10-06-2017 8:51 PM Paboss has not replied
 Message 161 by Faith, posted 10-06-2017 9:27 PM Paboss has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 395 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 160 of 1540 (821402)
10-06-2017 8:51 PM
Reply to: Message 159 by Paboss
10-06-2017 8:13 PM


Re: Conversations with Faith on faith.
Welcome home. Pull up a stump and set a spell.
Paboss writes:
If the bible was the word of God it shouldn't be a problem to question it, because every question would have a good answer. But that is not what happen with it. How can a book that's full of contradictions, atrocities and absurdities be the word of an omniscient and all benevolent being?
The answer is that of course, it can't. So those who try to sell you the idea that there actually is such a thing as "The Bible" and that it is the word of God are simply making stuff up, trying to sell you an unsupportable idea.
As a Christian I find it pitiful and that they try to market such a silly position; one that can only be maintained through willful ignorance.
That does not mean that the different Canons and the stories that get included in the different Canons are without value. But those who try to market Biblical Inerrancy or a Literal Bible can only do so my perverting what is actually said and what can actually be learned.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 161 of 1540 (821404)
10-06-2017 9:27 PM
Reply to: Message 159 by Paboss
10-06-2017 8:13 PM


Re: Conversations with Faith on faith.
I don't see the contradictions, they seem to be made up by nonbelievers. Doubting its authority and truthfulness will just leave you without answers. There's something quite amazing that happens when you take it as your authority and expect it to reveal marvelous truths to you, which won't happen if you indulge your doubts.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 159 by Paboss, posted 10-06-2017 8:13 PM Paboss has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 162 by Paboss, posted 10-07-2017 1:58 AM Faith has replied

  
Paboss
Member (Idle past 1766 days)
Posts: 55
Joined: 10-01-2017


(1)
Message 162 of 1540 (821410)
10-07-2017 1:58 AM
Reply to: Message 161 by Faith
10-06-2017 9:27 PM


Re: Conversations with Faith on faith.
Hi Jar,
Thank you for welcoming me to the site. Looking at a few of your posts I have the impression that you have a sound academic knowledge of the bible and other contemporary writings as well as the historical context in which they were written. I'm looking forward to learn some of that.
Faith,
If you don't see any contradictions in the Bible I would suggest this: If you haven't, do read it completely, cover to cover; and reflect on what you are reading. With that alone you should be able to spot a lot of issues.
If that is not enough, simply google "Bible contradictions"; you'll find overwhelming amounts of if. Look at what people who disagree with you write about it and try to refute what they say. If God is with you, you should be able to own every person attacking the Bible, and demonstrate where we all are wrong. You would do your Lord a great service.
If you take the Bible as authority and don't "indulge" your doubts, you are resigning your humanity and giving up yourself as a slave at a time where freethinking is allowed, at least in western society. If God exists at all, he gave us curious minds and an appetite for answers, so there is not reason not to want to make questions.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 161 by Faith, posted 10-06-2017 9:27 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 163 by Faith, posted 10-07-2017 6:14 AM Paboss has not replied
 Message 164 by kbertsche, posted 10-07-2017 6:24 AM Paboss has not replied
 Message 165 by jar, posted 10-07-2017 6:32 AM Paboss has not replied
 Message 167 by Faith, posted 10-07-2017 6:50 AM Paboss has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 163 of 1540 (821412)
10-07-2017 6:14 AM
Reply to: Message 162 by Paboss
10-07-2017 1:58 AM


Re: Conversations with Faith on faith.
Let me put it this way: There are no SIGNIFICANT contradictions, that change any important meanings. Oh I know what's claimed about it by the unbelievers, I even have a thick book answering them all. Any that aren't yet resolved would no doubt be resolved with a better understanding. Meanwhile the Bible is a divine teacher of truth which you are sadly deprived of experiencing. Once you know the Bible is divinely inspired it's actually stupid to pick it apart. For all I know all those "contradictions" are there just to keep some people away from it. As Pascal said, it has enough light for those who believe, and enough obscurity to keep the insincere away (or keep them in the dark or something like that).
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 176 by ringo, posted 10-07-2017 11:49 AM Faith has not replied

  
kbertsche
Member (Idle past 2132 days)
Posts: 1427
From: San Jose, CA, USA
Joined: 05-10-2007


(1)
Message 164 of 1540 (821413)
10-07-2017 6:24 AM
Reply to: Message 162 by Paboss
10-07-2017 1:58 AM


Re: Conversations with Faith on faith.
Paboss, do you think the original readers would have perceived contradictions in the Bible?
It seems to me that most of the supposed contradictions in the Bible are of our own making, due to reading anachronistically. If we apply 21st century western standards to first century (or earlier) middle-eastern writings, we will misread them.
Edited by kbertsche, : No reason given.

"Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." — Albert Einstein
I am very astonished that the scientific picture of the real world around me is very deficient. It gives us a lot of factual information, puts all of our experience in a magnificently consistent order, but it is ghastly silent about all and sundry that is really near to our heart, that really matters to us. It cannot tell us a word about red and blue, bitter and sweet, physical pain and physical delight; it knows nothing of beautiful and ugly, good or bad, God and eternity. Science sometimes pretends to answer questions in these domains, but the answers are very often so silly that we are not inclined to take them seriously. — Erwin Schroedinger

This message is a reply to:
 Message 162 by Paboss, posted 10-07-2017 1:58 AM Paboss has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 166 by PaulK, posted 10-07-2017 6:46 AM kbertsche has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 395 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 165 of 1540 (821414)
10-07-2017 6:32 AM
Reply to: Message 162 by Paboss
10-07-2017 1:58 AM


Re: Conversations with Faith on faith.
Paboss writes:
Hi Jar,
Thank you for welcoming me to the site. Looking at a few of your posts I have the impression that you have a sound academic knowledge of the bible and other contemporary writings as well as the historical context in which they were written. I'm looking forward to learn some of that.
Let those who have ears, listen.
Remember that I am a devout Christian raised in a Christian home and educated in Christian schools. But only a fool or an utterly willfully dishonest person can deny that the God of the Bible is often described as ignorant, weak, unsure, dishonest, cruel, unreasonable and evil. But that simply reflects human bias and misrepresents what the authors of the stories were trying to say.
It is sad and pitiful that so much of Christianity today, particularly Biblical Christianity, is based on dishonesty and deceit and denial of reality.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 162 by Paboss, posted 10-07-2017 1:58 AM Paboss has not replied

  
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