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Author Topic:   The Tension of Faith
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 181 of 1540 (821440)
10-07-2017 12:18 PM
Reply to: Message 179 by Phat
10-07-2017 11:58 AM


Re: Conversations with Faith on faith.
Phat writes:
How is she contradicting the Bible?
We've been through this many times: There was no "Fall". Adam and Eve grew up; they accepted their responsibilities. That's a good thing; God Himself said so.
Phat writes:
There are children of the light and children of the darkness.
No there are not. We ALL have light and darkness in us.
quote:
23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
Phat writes:
Enmity between two seeds.
You'd better look at that one again:
quote:
Genesis 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
That's enmity between Adam's seed and the SNAKE's seed. It "explains" why people don't like snakes - and why men and women don't always agree.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 179 by Phat, posted 10-07-2017 11:58 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


(1)
Message 182 of 1540 (821441)
10-07-2017 12:18 PM
Reply to: Message 167 by Faith
10-07-2017 6:50 AM


Re: Conversations with Faith on faith.
Faith writes:
This is not exactly true. We are not as God originally created us, nothing in this world is, the world is under the curse of the Fall, the disobedience of our original parents.
Tell me Faith, did God know that the fall was going to happen prior to creating Adam and Eve? If so then the fall was obvious that the fall was part of the creation process. Again, obviously our minds were created to be able to distinguish and choose between good and evil. By your understanding of creation, with God knowing the future, the fall was part of God "originally creating us".
Faith writes:
He has given us one divinely inspired source of knowledge, the Bible, and it is extreme folly to rip it apart with our broken minds.
You are right in saying that He gave us one divinely inspired source of knowledge, but that was in the Word made flesh, Jesus Christ. Once again, you are making a false idol out of the Bible. That is Biblianity not Christianity.
Faith writes:
Yes God could lead us in science too if we respect Him, pray to Him
- as in people like Francis Collins or John Polkinghorne.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 167 by Faith, posted 10-07-2017 6:50 AM Faith has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 183 of 1540 (821442)
10-07-2017 12:19 PM
Reply to: Message 180 by Phat
10-07-2017 12:13 PM


Re: Conversations with Faith on faith.
Phat writes:
Logic tells me that I won't understand God any better by reading Confucious, Mencias, or Mark Twain.
Show us the logic.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 180 by Phat, posted 10-07-2017 12:13 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 184 of 1540 (821443)
10-07-2017 12:34 PM
Reply to: Message 175 by Faith
10-07-2017 11:09 AM


Faith writes:
But if we pray for help, sincerely trust and respect God, He will guide us, but if we just trust in our ability to think without His help, no, we can't count on getting things right. If we could count on that why is there disagreement on everything?
Of course we won't always get things right. We are all fallible. If we had absolute knowledge it wouldn't be faith.
Faith writes:
Being inspired by God ensures it contains the truth, and the writers of every one of those books was inspired by God. "All scripture is God-breathed..."
The Biblical writers were inspired to write their stories down. That does not mean that God dictated it to them. Your understanding of the Scripture. (as we've gone through many times) has God commanding genocide and public stoning), and yet we see Jesus saying that they got it wrong. (Love your enemy and let he who is without sin cast the first stone etc.)
Faith writes:
The Bible is the way we find out about Jesus, it's how we know anything at all about Him, you cannot know Him without the Bible as our guide. Your accusation that it is "bibliolatry" to use the Bible as our only route to knowledge of God. It's like saying we don't need to go to school, we can know everything without any teaching. The Bible introduces us to Jesus, but after you have that relationship you still have to have the Bible to be sure you are actually having that relationship and not just making it up. Bible believers don't miss anything, but you can get yourself deceived by your way of thinking.
The Bible is a collection of books from hundreds of sources and written within the culture of their time. Yes, the Bible teaches us about Jesus. Yes, the Bible is our written source of God working with mankind up to 2000 years ago. Yes, God speaks to us through those stories. However if we understand those stories the way you do then the message that we get is much more likely to be wrong.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 175 by Faith, posted 10-07-2017 11:09 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 185 by Faith, posted 10-07-2017 1:15 PM GDR has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 185 of 1540 (821444)
10-07-2017 1:15 PM
Reply to: Message 184 by GDR
10-07-2017 12:34 PM


Inspiration or dictation?
Your understanding of the Scripture ... has God commanding genocide and public stoning...
No, my understanding has God commanding the execution of judgment according to the Moral Law, about which He is trying to teach us by having it written down, which is what you are resisting...
...and yet we see Jesus saying that they got it wrong. (Love your enemy and let he who is without sin cast the first stone etc.)
Jesus is not saying they got it wrong. He Himself is the Author of the Old Testament, as you ought to know but it sounds like you don't. You are wrongly dividing the word of Truth as usual, since Jesus is here addressing each of us personally to love our personal enemies, He is not addressing the nation of Israel which was the context of the Old Testament command. As for stoning, that made sense as the execution of justice in a theocracy, so that sin would not spread and corrupt the nation, but after Jesus has come the focus becomes individual and personal. He speaks to the woman caught in adultery as a sinning individual being judged by sinning individuals, whom He challenges concerning their own personal sins which are relevant in the new context but not the old. He changes the context. Sin is now primarily a matter of the heart whereas in the theocracy it was a matter of behavior within the social context. Likewise there are no longer prohibitions on certain foods because there is no longer a reason for them as there was in the OT context of the theocratic nation of Israel.
The gospel is going out to the Gentiles, to the entire world. Jesus has come not to abolish the Law but to fulfill it: the sins God punished in the OT are not now permitted because Jesus has come, but Jesus will go to the cross to pay for them in His own body, and out of love for Him we obey the Law, not under threat of stoning let alone eternal Hell. He forgives sin because of His own sacrifice to pay for it.
But we are nevertheless to understand the TRUE RIGHTEOUS penalty for sin without His atonement from the severity of the judgments God commanded in the OT. By refusing to believe the accounts of the severe punishments in the OT you just water down the significance of Jesus' atonement.
The Biblical writers were inspired to write their stories down. That does not mean that God dictated it to them.
You seem to be hung up on this idea of God "dictating" things, and you are misunderstanding how the term "inspire" is used in the context of God's authorship of the Bible. Again, the scripture is "God-breathed," that's what is translated "inspired." God infused His thoughts into the minds of the writers, not by dictation but by making them aware of His intent. Believers now may hear from God in a similar way as He "speaks" to our minds and hearts to let us know His will or wisdom on a certain subject. It isn't a dictation, the written word comes through the personality of the writer, not word for word but with God's intent accurately expressed. Every writing is stamped with the personality of the writer, and yet it is God's mind that is expressed.
The Bible is a collection of books from hundreds of sources and written within the culture of their time.
Of course. You don't think God can guide hundreds of writers in different cultural contexts as He wills?
Yes, the Bible teaches us about Jesus. Yes, the Bible is our written source of God working with mankind up to 2000 years ago. Yes, God speaks to us through those stories. However if we understand those stories the way you do then the message that we get is much more likely to be wrong.
What an odd idea. Why would that be?
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 184 by GDR, posted 10-07-2017 12:34 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 191 by GDR, posted 10-07-2017 6:34 PM Faith has replied

  
kbertsche
Member (Idle past 2131 days)
Posts: 1427
From: San Jose, CA, USA
Joined: 05-10-2007


(1)
Message 186 of 1540 (821446)
10-07-2017 2:18 PM
Reply to: Message 173 by jar
10-07-2017 9:17 AM


Re: Conversations with Faith on faith.
Re the apparent contradiction between Calvinism and Arminianism:
jar writes:
If both positions are in the Bible then that is a contradiction.
It really is that simple Faith.
Maybe not. If my physics book says that photons are both particles and waves, is it contradicting itself? Or is this really true, and our limited perspective is misleading us?

"Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." — Albert Einstein
I am very astonished that the scientific picture of the real world around me is very deficient. It gives us a lot of factual information, puts all of our experience in a magnificently consistent order, but it is ghastly silent about all and sundry that is really near to our heart, that really matters to us. It cannot tell us a word about red and blue, bitter and sweet, physical pain and physical delight; it knows nothing of beautiful and ugly, good or bad, God and eternity. Science sometimes pretends to answer questions in these domains, but the answers are very often so silly that we are not inclined to take them seriously. — Erwin Schroedinger

This message is a reply to:
 Message 173 by jar, posted 10-07-2017 9:17 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 189 by jar, posted 10-07-2017 4:15 PM kbertsche has not replied
 Message 222 by New Cat's Eye, posted 10-09-2017 11:57 AM kbertsche has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


(1)
Message 187 of 1540 (821447)
10-07-2017 3:53 PM
Reply to: Message 170 by Faith
10-07-2017 7:15 AM


Re: Conversations with Faith on faith.
quote:
There are not two different creation stories, there is one creation story followed by a discussion of an aspect of the creation. This and the ridiculous notion that there is more than one Flood story in the Bible are evidence of fallen minds doing their destructive work on God's truth.
And so you reject the actual Bible for your own imaginings. If the Bible destroys your God's truth - and what you have said amounts to that - then obviously your God is not the God of the Bible.
quote:
Oh, and humility is shown in deferring to God, certainly not in putting trust in your own fallible mind. That is the essence of pride.
Which makes you one of the proudest people here.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 170 by Faith, posted 10-07-2017 7:15 AM Faith has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 188 of 1540 (821448)
10-07-2017 4:11 PM
Reply to: Message 180 by Phat
10-07-2017 12:13 PM


Re: Conversations with Faith on faith.
Phat writes:
Logic tells me that I won't understand God any better by reading Confucious, Mencias, or Mark Twain.
Or Carroll or converse with Archy or any inspired writings. Let those with ears hear. Let those with eyes read. Mene mene tekel upharsin was not only written to Belshazzar. The hard part is seeing what is really there and hearing what is really said and then working to understand the meaning which almost always is NOT what you wanted to see, not what you wanted to hear, certainly not what you wanted it to mean.
Phat writes:
How can humanity begin to understand the message that Jesus tells us any better
Understand that Jesus message is not about what will happen to us but what we are charged to try to do. John 3:16 is NOT Jesus' message, not God's message, but John's marketing.
Phat writes:
I have gone and fed, clothed and comforted many people but all that I learned was that more needs to be done and that the rich always keep their money and the poor widows have to use their last two mites to give anyone any spare change.
But the charge is not what THEY should do. THEY don't enter into the message. Jesus message is that you should do what you can. It is not that you should be closer to Jesus or closer to God. Throw God away!!!!!!!
And you are not to do it for God, not do it for Jesus, not do it for thanks, not do it for salvation but because it is the right thing to do and it is stuff you can do.
You do what you can. You don't pay any attention to whether anyone else does it or expect anyone else to do anything.
You do what you can.
After you go and feed and clothe and comfort many people you realize that yes, there are still those who you can feed, you can clothe, you can comfort. Is there more left that you can do? Then rejoice; you still have duty, you still have a task, you are still needed.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 180 by Phat, posted 10-07-2017 12:13 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 189 of 1540 (821449)
10-07-2017 4:15 PM
Reply to: Message 186 by kbertsche
10-07-2017 2:18 PM


Re: Conversations with Faith on faith.
LOL
Fortunately theology is not physics and has little to do with reality.
But it certainly is a field to be plowed and sown by the apologists to grow dogma.
And in the case of the Bible, Yes Virginia, there really are contradictions.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 186 by kbertsche, posted 10-07-2017 2:18 PM kbertsche has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 190 by Faith, posted 10-07-2017 6:30 PM jar has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 190 of 1540 (821452)
10-07-2017 6:30 PM
Reply to: Message 189 by jar
10-07-2017 4:15 PM


Re: Conversations with Faith on faith.
Often what looks at first like a contradiction is really a matter of context. Arminian concepts relate to the human perspective for instance, while Calvinist concepts describe God's perspective, so there is no contradiction. Both are true.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 189 by jar, posted 10-07-2017 4:15 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 192 by jar, posted 10-07-2017 8:31 PM Faith has not replied
 Message 193 by PaulK, posted 10-08-2017 3:43 AM Faith has replied
 Message 198 by Percy, posted 10-08-2017 3:13 PM Faith has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


(1)
Message 191 of 1540 (821453)
10-07-2017 6:34 PM
Reply to: Message 185 by Faith
10-07-2017 1:15 PM


Re: Inspiration or dictation?
Faith writes:
No, my understanding has God commanding the execution of judgment according to the Moral Law, about which He is trying to teach us by having it written down, which is what you are resisting...
Let's have a look at the moral law that I'm resisting.
From Deuteronomy 7
quote:
1 When the LORD your God brings you into the land you are entering to possess and drives out before you many nationsthe Hittites, Girgashites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites, seven nations larger and stronger than you
2 and when the LORD your God has delivered them over to you and you have defeated them, then you must destroy them totally. Make no treaty with them, and show them no mercy.
From Numbers 15
quote:
32 While the Israelites were in the wilderness, a man was found gathering wood on the Sabbath day.
33Those who found him gathering wood brought him to Moses and Aaron and the whole assembly,
34 and they kept him in custody, because it was not clear what should be done to him.
35 Then the LORD said to Moses, The man must die. The whole assembly must stone him outside the camp.
36 So the assembly took him outside the camp and stoned him to death, as the LORD commanded Moses.
You are able to say that these quotes are to be taken literally as being commanded by God. That is the supposedly the same God that gives this as a command as spoken by Jesus.
From Matthew 5
quote:
43 You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’
44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,
45 that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.
46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that?
47 And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that?
48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.
Ok, so you will argue that it was necessary for God to do what the Bible says He commanded in the first two quotes as he wanted the Israelites not to be influenced by their neighbouring tribes. However, we would have the same deity telling His people to love their enemies. In fact He is seeing to their needs Himself, with the sun and rain. He is essentially saying that He loves all mankind, Jew, Christian, pagan or for that matter atheist.
But let’s say that you are right that God is a god of situational ethics. He’ll break His own commands to get the outcome He desires.
Firstly we know that it didn’t work because these tribes still existed far into the future, and the Israelites were still beset with their same problems. If God knows all future events He would know that it wasn’t going to be successful, so why command it in the first place?
Also, the question you haven’t been able to answer is; if Yahweh wanted all these people dead, why wouldn’t He just do it Himself. It seems He was able to do it in Sodom and Gomorrah, yet in these quotes He wants His chosen people, the ones He loves, to go out and in the first case slaughter every living thing, man, woman, child, infant and beast, and the second case He wants the good town folk to get together and cruelly and mercilessly stone their neighbour to death for picking up firewood on the Sabbath. Again, why didn’t He do it Himself.
We know what war does to our soldiers. They go to war zones and come back so badly damaged that they are very often unable to function back at home, and this is even among people who aren’t engaged in combat but are merely witnesses of the slaughter. PSD is a reality. I think that the majority of people in our society would have a great deal of difficulty in dealing with the idea that someone was killed accidentally as a result of their driving.
You are of the belief that God thinks it is alright to send out the people that He loves, the People that are to take His message to the world, to torture and kill a neighbour and infants. God would be in effect torturing His own people, and hardening their hearts by commanding them to commit these heinous acts.
Again, if this was so necessary why didn’t God just do it Himself?
You cannot reasonably compare the first two quotes with the third and say that they all represent the true nature of God. Your belief of how the Bible is to be understood is completely at odds with the belief that Jesus perfectly embodied the true nature of our creator.
The belief in an inerrant Bible is absolutely not compatible with the belief that, as John 1 puts it, in Jesus the Word was made flesh.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 185 by Faith, posted 10-07-2017 1:15 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 194 by Faith, posted 10-08-2017 8:23 AM GDR has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 192 of 1540 (821455)
10-07-2017 8:31 PM
Reply to: Message 190 by Faith
10-07-2017 6:30 PM


Re: Conversations with Faith on faith.
LOL
ROTFLMAO
Apologists can always make shit up.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 190 by Faith, posted 10-07-2017 6:30 PM Faith has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 193 of 1540 (821460)
10-08-2017 3:43 AM
Reply to: Message 190 by Faith
10-07-2017 6:30 PM


Re: Conversations with Faith on faith.
So, in the human perspective God wants to save everyone and in God's perspective that's not true at all. Perhaps you can explain how they could both be true. Or even how there could be a "different perspective" on that question.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 190 by Faith, posted 10-07-2017 6:30 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 195 by Faith, posted 10-08-2017 9:28 AM PaulK has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 194 of 1540 (821463)
10-08-2017 8:23 AM
Reply to: Message 191 by GDR
10-07-2017 6:34 PM


Re: Inspiration or dictation?
Loving your neighbor does require the punishment of transgressors to keep your neighbor from committing them.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 191 by GDR, posted 10-07-2017 6:34 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 197 by GDR, posted 10-08-2017 10:46 AM Faith has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 195 of 1540 (821467)
10-08-2017 9:28 AM
Reply to: Message 193 by PaulK
10-08-2017 3:43 AM


Re: Conversations with Faith on faith.
In the human perspective you have free will and a choice, and that's true; from God's perspective He determines it all but that doesn't impact our personal experience.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 193 by PaulK, posted 10-08-2017 3:43 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 196 by PaulK, posted 10-08-2017 9:34 AM Faith has not replied

  
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