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Author Topic:   "The Flood" deposits as a sea transgressive/regressive sequence ("Walther's Law")
RAZD
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Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
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(2)
Message 184 of 224 (821001)
09-30-2017 7:15 AM
Reply to: Message 173 by Faith
09-29-2017 6:10 PM


where is your layer, one ... ONE →(1)← continuous world wide globe girding layer
There are different portions or versions of the Stratigraphic Column in different locations, but there is still only one Stratigraphic Column, to which is attached the Geological Time Scale, illustrated thusly:

And by the way it goes up to the present time and it stops there with every indication that it is completed.

It goes right up to today, and tomorrow it will go right up to then.

We are in the Holocene, and material is still being added to the Holocene deposits, the Holocene era is not completed.

And you are still confusing arbitrary age definitions with actual rocks. Can you identify for me which rock layers or rock formations are shown in your diagram?

Curiously, seeing as we are talking about the Stratigraphic Column ... again ... you haven't yet answered my question -- where is your layer, one ... ONE →(1)← continuous world wide globe girding layer that would be deposited by a magic flying carpet world trotting flood ... where is it Faith?

What layer in this column represents a single rock layer or rock formation that covers the entire globe?

I can show you where the iridium layer is -- it is at the T/K boundary at 65.5 million years ago, but it is not from a flood deposit it is from deposition world wide of ash and dust, including the iridium, that was exploded into the atmosphere from the meteor impact at the Yucatan peninsula. It is identifiable as such by the material in the layer wherever it is found, on top of different rock formations around the world and under different rock formations around the world. The layers above and below this layer are composed of different rock deposits in different places around the world.

It was an extinction event. Your magic flying carpet world trotting flood is purported to be an extinction event, and it would have been recognized as such ... if it had actually occurred.

So where is your layer, one ... ONE →(1)← continuous world wide globe girding layer that would be deposited by a magic flying carpet world trotting flood ... where is it Faith?

Enjoy


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RAZD
Member (Idle past 639 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


(1)
Message 185 of 224 (821002)
09-30-2017 7:38 AM
Reply to: Message 180 by Faith
09-30-2017 2:53 AM


Walther's Law explains the Grand Canyon better.
All that interests me is the stack of sediments, wherever they are found, however many of them are found in a given location, that either actually climb from the Cambrian to the Holocene or fit into that sequence, the stack of strata on which the Geological Time Scale is built.

Where is your layer, one ... ONE →(1)← continuous world wide globe girding layer that would be deposited by a magic flying carpet world trotting flood ... where is it Faith?

You claim many were laid down one after the other by the flood. You should be able to find at least one.

Until then, the explanation of the layers of sedimentary rock is best explained by time and by known geological mechanisms like Walther's Law -- which adequately explains the different rock formations in the Grand Canyon as has been pointed out previously in Message 74

Message 40: This is what I get (using your list) as a simple\simplistic application of the model to the Grand Canyon rocks:


.......................... Kaibab/limestone ..........................
....................... Toroweap/gypsum/shale ........................
......................... Coconino/sandstone .........................
........................... Hermit/shale .............................
........................ Esplanade/sandstone .........................
........................ Wescogame/sandstone .........................
......................... Mankacha/limestone .........................
........................ Watahomigi/limestone ........................
......................... Redwall/limestone ..........................
....................... Temple Butte/limestone .......................
........................... Muav/limestone ...........................
......................... Bright Angel/Shale .........................
......................... Tapeats/Sandstone ..........................
....................Vishnu/Zoroaster/Unconformity ....................

Now you might get a slightly different arrangement depending on how you classify some of the layer rocks (sandy limestone for instance), but you should get the general idea: when the sand is being deposited for the sandstone layers there is also mud, carbonate and ooze being deposited somewhere else at the same time.

This shows a pattern of marine transgression and regression a period of dry land deposition and then another marine transgression -- all according to Walther's Law.

The different ages of the different formations explains the different in fossils and the difference in radioactive isotopes consistently found in the layers.

But none of those layers extend around the world, heck none of them even cover North America.

You have gone on and on about how your magic flying carpet world trotting flood laid down one layer after the other (while magically sorting the debris so that only certain fossils and certain radioactive isotopes are deposited in the layers) ... but you have yet to show one ... ONE →(1)← continuous world wide globe girding layer that would be deposited by a magic flying carpet world trotting flood ... where is it Faith?

Inquiring minds want to know.

Enjoy


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RAZD
Member (Idle past 639 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 191 of 224 (821024)
09-30-2017 2:55 PM
Reply to: Message 183 by Faith
09-30-2017 6:25 AM


Which one ... (1) ... →ONE← ... layer is continuous around the world
I don't care whether Walther's Law can account for all the strata seen in the Grand Canyon and Grand Staircase, but I know the Flood accounts for all of it.

So which layer of all those in the Grand Canyon that were -- according to you -- laid down one after the other as the flying magical world trotting flood danced around the world time and again ... which of all those layers shows up in a continuous layer all around the world?

Which one ... (1) ... ONE ... layer is continuous all around the earth ... if we find it in the Grand Canyon, as you continually decree, where do we see it in Europe, in Asia, in Africa, in Australia ... everywhere the flying magic carpet world trotting flood went ... ???

WHERE IS IT, FAITH????

That is the only evidence that supports a world wide flying magic carpet world trotting flood, because ANY discontinuous layer can only support a specific area being underwater and accumulating sedimentary deposits at any one time.

According to your model there should be several such layers.

So show me one ... (1) ... ONE ... layer that is continuous all around the earth and shows up on every continent and in every stratigraphic column.

One.

Enjoy

Edited by RAZD, : just one


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RAZD
Member (Idle past 639 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 194 of 224 (821127)
10-02-2017 4:48 PM
Reply to: Message 193 by Taq
10-02-2017 4:23 PM


Re: River Deltas
and the Amazon

... what??? grain size decreasing with distance from mouth??? who woulda thunk that would happen.

Enjoy

Edited by RAZD, : .

Edited by RAZD, : ..


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RAZD
Member (Idle past 639 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 201 of 224 (821431)
10-07-2017 11:35 AM
Reply to: Message 200 by NoNukes
10-04-2017 1:16 PM


The Faith pattern repeats?
And a fine illustration of how this argument has proceeded. Someone just asserts, without even looking, but solely because, "it must be true", that the geological column is not being added to.

It would appear that Faith is holding to her usual pattern of arguing repeatedly for her opinion, and when the evidence and arguments mount up she abandons the thread (usual personal persecution claims).

We can expect the same arguments on the next flood thread together with claims that she refuted all the arguments presented here.

Enjoy


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RAZD
Member (Idle past 639 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 205 of 224 (821477)
10-08-2017 10:02 AM
Reply to: Message 203 by Percy
10-08-2017 7:27 AM


Walther's Law and Delta Formations
... For Walther's Law to be a factor the transgress into the landscape must be really, really slow, inches per year on average at most is my guess. It *has* to be very slow in order for there to be enough time to leave a significant deposit of sand or mud or limestone at a given location, because these types of the sediments are *produced* by precisely that type of environment, whether the environment be at the coast, or just offshore, or way offshore, or in mid-ocean. ...

Well I had kind of figured that the last two had to occur over long time periods, because they are biological deposits. Here's the image again:

One question I had was what is the origin for the siliciclastic muds. When I looked this up on wikipedia I got:

quote:
Siliciclastic rocks (commonly misspelled siliclastic) are clastic noncarbonate sedimentary rocks that are almost exclusively silica-bearing, either as forms of quartz or other silicate minerals. All siliciclastic rocks are formed by inorganic processes, or deposited through some mechanical process, such as stream deposits (delta deposits) that are subsequently lithified. They are sandstone based rocks accounting for about 50 - 60% of the world oil and gas exploration.The other silicate minerals that are generally present in siliciclastic sedimentary rocks are feldspar, biotite etc....

I was hoping to get some idea of the particle size.

Note that it says "stream deposits (delta deposits)" so this imply fine particle size to be carried out to the distance range of these muds.

Are these particles made by the further grinding and reduction of sands along the shore and in the streams?

This would also imply long time as rocks → ground down to sands → ground down to siliciclastic muds.

This also implies that there is not so much two different deposition environments, but that gravels, sands and siliciclastic muds form a continuum graded by size with distance from shore, whether along the shore (carried by shore currents?) or in a delta.

Referring to Message 19 of my The Age of the Earth (version 3 no 1 part 1) thread:

quote:
Settling Velocity and Suspension Velocity(1)

quote:
Every material has its own suspension and settling velocity. The suspension velocity is the speed of water above which the water will pick up the material and hold it in suspension. The settling velocity is the speed below which the material will be dropped out of suspension and will settle out of the water.

The relative sizes of gravel, sand, silt, and clay particles are shown below:

Sand and gravel are both large and dense. In addition, they have a small surface area per unit volume since they are roughly spherical. So these types of particles have a high suspension velocity.


1. Cooke, R. (website), Settling Velocity and Suspension Velocity, Mountain Empire Community College. © 2013[2013, December 2] http://water.me.vccs.edu/concepts/velocitysusp.htm


My understanding is that "muds" would be mostly silt sized particles -- is this correct?

For silt in wikipedia I get:

quote:
Silt is granular material of a size between sand and clay, whose mineral origin is quartz[1] and feldspar. Silt may occur as a soil (often mixed with sand or clay) or as sediment mixed in suspension with water (also known as a suspended load) and soil in a body of water such as a river. It may also exist as soil deposited at the bottom of a water body, like mudflows from landslides. Silt has a moderate specific area with a typically non-sticky, plastic feel. Silt usually has a floury feel when dry, and a slippery feel when wet. Silt can be visually observed with a hand lens.

Silt is created by a variety of physical processes capable of splitting the generally sand-sized quartz crystals of primary rocks by exploiting deficiencies in their lattice.[2] These involve chemical weathering of rock[3] and regolith, and a number of physical weathering processes such as frost shattering[4] and haloclasty.[5] The main process is abrasion through transport, including fluvial comminution, aeolian attrition and glacial grinding.[6] It is in semi-arid environments[7] that substantial quantities of silt are produced. Silt is sometimes known as "rock flour" or "stone dust", especially when produced by glacial action. Mineralogically, silt is composed mainly of quartz and feldspar. Sedimentary rock composed mainly of silt is known as siltstone ...


Also note that dust particles are carried by winds out over the oceans and deposited at great distances ... if they are small enough. (Stoke's law in air instead of water).

Overall this seems a lot like siliciclastic muds. Also seems it would take a long time to make significant amounts.

Enjoy

Edited by RAZD, : added

Edited by RAZD, : .

Edited by RAZD, : more


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This message is a reply to:
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 639 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 210 of 224 (821509)
10-08-2017 5:14 PM
Reply to: Message 209 by Percy
10-08-2017 4:59 PM


What is the source of your chart?

Looking at the wiki article it looks like granpa is the source of the chart. Ties in with a previous proposed topic it seems.


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RAZD
Member (Idle past 639 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 211 of 224 (821510)
10-08-2017 5:21 PM
Reply to: Message 206 by Percy
10-08-2017 2:44 PM


Re: Walther's Law and Delta Formations
... and that they occur further out from the coast than beach sand because they're smaller, lighter particles and will only fall out of suspension in quieter waters (i.e., no waves crashing through a surf onto a beach).

After a point the only thing falling to the ocean floor is organic debris (diatom/foraminifera tests for example), airborne dust (from Africa/Sahara for example), and Cosmic Dust:

quote:
Cosmic dust, also called extraterrestrial dust or space dust, is dust which exists in outer space, as well as all over planet Earth.[1][2] Most cosmic dust particles are between a few molecules to 0.1 µm in size. A smaller fraction of all dust in space consists of larger refractory minerals that condensed as matter left the stars. It is called "stardust" and is included in a separate section below. The dust density falling to Earth is approximately 10−6/m3 with each grain having a mass between 10−16kg (0.1 pg) and 10−4 kg (100 mg).[3][4]

Cosmic dust can be further distinguished by its astronomical location: intergalactic dust, interstellar dust, interplanetary dust (such as in the zodiacal cloud) and circumplanetary dust (such as in a planetary ring). In the Solar System, interplanetary dust causes the zodiacal light. Sources of Solar System dust include comet dust, asteroidal dust, dust from the Kuiper belt, and interstellar dust passing through the Solar System. The terminology has no specific application for describing materials found on the planet Earth except for dust that has demonstrably fallen to Earth. By one estimate, as much as 40,000 tons of cosmic dust reaches the Earth's surface every year.[3] In October 2011, scientists reported that cosmic dust contains complex organic matter (amorphous organic solids with a mixed aromatic–aliphatic structure) that could be created naturally, and rapidly, by stars.[5][6][7]

In August 2014, scientists announced the collection of possible interstellar dust particles from the Stardust spacecraft since returning to Earth in 2006.[8][9][10][11] In March 2017, scientists reported that extraterrestrial dust particles have been identified all over planet Earth.[2] According to one of the researchers, “Once I knew what to look for, I found them everywhere.”[1]


If these particles can be identified in sedimentary layers, then it becomes increasingly difficult for any creationist to argue that the layers were all laid down in ~400 days by the magical mystery tour globe trotting flying magical carpet flood.

Enjoy


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RAZD
Member (Idle past 639 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 214 of 224 (821584)
10-09-2017 4:26 PM
Reply to: Message 213 by edge
10-08-2017 9:29 PM


Re: Walther's Law and Delta Formations
The term siliciclastic is a compound term meaning it is of silicate composition (including clay minerals, quartz grains, feldspar grains, mica grains ... anything with silica in it) broken down from a previously existing rock.

Most sandstone beaches are eroded from siliceous rocks carried to the sea and abraded by rivers and wind, and sometimes eroded directly by wave action. ...

So would I be correct in assuming that the division between "sands" and "siliciclastic muds" is more due to the definitions of "sand" and "silt" than any major difference in other characteristics?

I was also looking into the coccolith/foram ooze (and where I got into the cosmic dust component in Message 211):

quote:
Pelagic sediment

Pelagic sediment or pelagite is a fine-grained sediment that accumulates as the result of the settling of particles to the floor of the open ocean, far from land. These particles consist primarily of either the microscopic, calcareous or siliceous shells of phytoplankton or zooplankton; clay-size siliciclastic sediment; or some mixture of these. Trace amounts of meteoric dust and variable amounts of volcanic ash also occur within pelagic sediments. Based upon the composition of the ooze, there are three main types of pelagic sediments: siliceous oozes, calcareous oozes, and red clays.[1][2]

The composition of pelagic sediments is controlled by three main factors. The first factor is the distance from major landmasses, which affects their dilution by terrigenous, or land-derived, sediment. The second factor is water depth, which affects the preservation of both siliceous and calcareous biogenic particles as they settle to the ocean bottom. The final factor is ocean fertility, which controls the amount of biogenic particles produced in surface waters.[1][2]

In case of marine sediments, ooze does not refer to a sediment's consistency, but to its composition, which directly reflects its origin. Ooze is pelagic sediment that consists of at least 30% of microscopic remains of either calcareous or siliceous planktonic debris organisms. The remainder typically consists almost entirely of clay minerals. As a result, the grain size of oozes is often bimodal with a well-defined biogenic silt- to sand-size fraction and siliciclastic clay-size fraction. Oozes can be defined by and classified according to the predominate organism that compose them. For example, there are diatom, coccolith, foraminifera, globigerina, pteropod, and radiolarian oozes. Oozes are also classified and named according to their mineralogy, i.e. calcareous or siliceous oozes. Whatever their composition, all oozes accumulate extremely slowly, at no more than a few centimeters per millennium.[2][3]

Calcareous ooze is ooze that is composed of at least 30% of the calcareous microscopic shells—also known as tests—of foraminifera, coccolithophores, and pteropods. This is the most common pelagic sediment by area, covering 48% of the world ocean's floor. This type of ooze accumulates on the ocean floor at depths above the carbonate compensation depth. It accumulates more rapidly than any other pelagic sediment type, with a rate that varies from 0.3–5 cm/1000 yr.[1][2]

Siliceous ooze is ooze that is composed of at least 30% of the siliceous microscopic "shells" of plankton, such as diatoms and radiolaria. Siliceous oozes often contain lesser proportions of either sponge spicules, silicoflagellates or both. This type of ooze accumulates on the ocean floor at depths below the carbonate compensation depth. ...


Would I be correct in aligning "Carbonate sediments" with Calcereous ooze and "coccolith/foram ooze" with Siliceous ooze? So the boundary between them is defined by the carbonate compensation depth (which Dr A described in his awesome Introduction To Geology thread)?

This would mean that the boundary between sands and siliciclastic muds is mostly a matter of particle size definition, but the boundary between them and the pelagic oozes is based on biological/organic traces (of 30% or more) in the later, with the pelagic oozes further subdivided into carbonate and non-carbonate deposits, yes?

Thanks

Edited by RAZD, : .

Edited by RAZD, : .


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RAZD
Member (Idle past 639 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 215 of 224 (821593)
10-09-2017 5:29 PM
Reply to: Message 213 by edge
10-08-2017 9:29 PM


What I expect from Walther's Law for Delta Formations
So applying Walther's Law to delta formations,

This would mean that the boundary between sands and siliciclastic muds is mostly a matter of particle size definition, but the boundary between them and the pelagic oozes is based on biological/organic traces (of 30% or more) in the later, with the pelagic oozes further subdivided into carbonate and non-carbonate deposits, yes?

I would expect the sediment load from rivers to deltas to consist of mostly sands and siliciclastic mud, graded by distance from the river mouth to the widening plane of the delta as the river velocity dropped.

I would not expect pelagic oozes in the delta formations.

These deposit would progressively cover earlier delta formation deposits, and at their furthest deposition distance they would overlay the previous existing ocean floor -- coastal sediments along the coast and the pelagic oozes as the delta encroaches on the ocean/seas.

And I recollect a discussion (of Grand Canyon deposits?) of deltas forming these layers at the angle of (underwater) repose for the materials. This is cross-bedding, yes?

Enjoy


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RAZD
Member (Idle past 639 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 218 of 224 (821651)
10-09-2017 10:28 PM
Reply to: Message 217 by edge
10-09-2017 10:01 PM


Re: What I expect from Walther's Law for Delta Formations
why does that picture make me think of a penguin


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RAZD
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Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
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Message 224 of 224 (822097)
10-19-2017 8:50 AM
Reply to: Message 223 by edge
10-18-2017 9:42 PM


Re: What I expect from Walther's Law for Delta Formations
I think someone mentioned the Amazon delta. The curious thing is that it is so small...

Isn't the Amazon very wide and flat for miles inland? Wouldn't that be the same deposition environment as a delta so only the finest smallest lightest material makes it to the mouth?

Also I think there is a north flowing coastal current that could easily carry the material material away from the mouth.

Just wondering

Enjoy


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