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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1465 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
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Author | Topic: The Tension of Faith | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18298 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
People are just not like this. What...you dont think we consciously choose to be either mostly selfless...considering the needs of others before ourselves OR selfish...looking out for #1?Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith
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Tangle Member Posts: 9504 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.7
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Phat writes: What...you dont think we consciously choose to be either mostly selfless...considering the needs of others before ourselves OR selfish...looking out for #1? Of course we don't. Life is far, far more complex than that. We are born with predispositions and we're conditioned by the environment and society we find ourselves brought up in. We don't just choose to be either naughty or nice, like a computer programme. Nor do we stay in one format all the time. We're not binary. GDR language here is pure religious babble that bears no resemblance to how we know we work....
quote: '...choose to yearn for a life based on unselfish love' Do me a favour....Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Percy Member Posts: 22479 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 4.7
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GDR writes: Well we know that there is a battle going on between good and evil. To me good and evil are highly subjective, and they're conceptual with no tangible reality as "things" that could do battle. Contextualizing by example to the conundrums of daily life doesn't change that.
The Christian hope and belief is that ultimately good fully triumphs as it did on the cross...etc... I can accept Jesus' message, but not the narrative that goes with it, and now I find myself more on Tangle's path. To embrace a particular interpretation of any particular Biblical narrative is a conceit that you've chosen the correct version of God while others have not. It is often said about religion that they cannot all be true, and that likely all are false. This seems so overtly self-evident that many of us are surprised that religions exist at all. But human nature being what it is, many of us accept all the obvious fictions, and one of the most important is that there is such a thing as the one, right and true religion, and that they have found it. For most people believing a religion is not a choice they make themselves but one that is made for them in childhood and then enforced by their religious, cultural and societal environment. I think you have no choice but to believe your version of Christianity, but I thought what you said earlier about following the teachings of Jesus or Buddha or Gandhi had a lot to recommend it.
Philosophy and theology don’t have the benefit of particle colliders. Well, yes, exactly, and the reason why is a key point. They're missing the tools of evidence for a very good reason - they're fictional.
If we also claim that God wants us to commit genocide and public stoning it even goes even beyond simply dishonouring Jesus on the cross. It essentially says that Jesus got it wrong and that we know better. Okay, now I understand your point about inerrantism dishonoring Jesus on the cross, though it doesn't alter my rejection of the Jesus stories. The moral spirit of Jesus (or Buddha or Gandhi) doesn't really need a religion. --Percy Edited by Percy, : Grammar.
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Phat Member Posts: 18298 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Tangle writes:
I'm starting to agree with the idea that there is no black and white dichotomy in human morality. I used to firmly believe in the all or nothing pronouncement of saved or lost but am now more comfortable with the honest realization that I could be both!
We don't just choose to be either naughty or nice, like a computer programme. Nor do we stay in one format all the time. We're not binary. GDR language here is pure religious babble that bears no resemblance to how we know we work.... Percy writes:
I used to defend this accusation by stating that one has to either stand for something or they will fall for anything! but I am now realizing that I actually stand for many things and fall for many things every day and that it is overall a learning process.
To embrace a particular interpretation of any particular Biblical narrative is a conceit that you've chosen the correct version of God while others have not.GDR writes:
Philosophy and theology don’t have the benefit of particle colliders. Percy writes: I'm not entirely in agreement there. Critics will say that I need my beliefs as a crutch and I will concede that they are right. I simply could never even imagine being an atheist! The implications are chilling to me personally. This does not imply that I don't respect them, however. And again...here we go with the whole us and them thing. I keep needing to remind myself that it is WE. Well, yes, exactly, and the reason why is a key point. They're missing the tools of evidence for a very good reason - they're fictional. And the word fictional is illogical to my conclusions. *hugs teddy bear tighter!*Perhaps I am scared that if I dont stand for Jesus I will fall for atheism! *ponders* Percy writes: This point agrees with Ringos mantra that values the message above the messenger. My response has always been to declare that the messenger is the message, and I think that GDR agrees with that as well. Great discussion, though! The moral spirit of Jesus (or Buddha or Gandhi) doesn't really need a religion.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith
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jar Member (Idle past 414 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Phat writes: My response has always been to declare that the messenger is the message, and I think that GDR agrees with that as well. Yet you can never explain what that even means.
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ringo Member (Idle past 432 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Faith writes:
What it says is: There is a proverb that advises not answering fools.1. Don't let fools get away with broadcasting foolishness. 2. Don't be foolish in refuting foolishness.
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Phat Member Posts: 18298 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
jar writes: True, but I'm getting better. In addition, I feel that I can almost explain what you think it means. Please don't tell me that I need to throw the messenger away however. That always causes me great anxiety. Yet you can never explain what that even means.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith
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ringo Member (Idle past 432 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Phat writes:
Most of us do both in the same day. You can donate to charity and buy yourself a new toy with the same chequebook. What...you dont think we consciously choose to be either mostly selfless...considering the needs of others before ourselves OR selfish...looking out for #1? There are not two separate groups of people, which is why God choosing one group makes no sense.
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jar Member (Idle past 414 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined:
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Phat writes: Please don't tell me that I need to throw the messenger away however. That always causes me great anxiety. Then maybe you need to try to figure out why that causes great anxiety.
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Phat Member Posts: 18298 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
For one thing, it means that I have to do the whole job myself without any help. Its like when I was a kid and boasted that my Dad could beat up your Dad and yet deep down probably knew that my Dad would never show up to validate my aggression.
I realize that you believe that true Christianity is not easy,...it is hard work and we are charged to do it ourselves. It would be nice to get some help though. When I was growing up my Dad always had a spare $20.00 bill for me when I needed one. Why can't God be the same way? Does'nt anybody realize that I'm getting older and weaker and can't do what I once did? What sort of a tough love God do we have, anyway? Edited by Phat, : addedChance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith
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Tangle Member Posts: 9504 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.7 |
Phat writes: It would be nice to get some help though. When I was growing up my Dad always had a spare $20.00 bill for me when I needed one. Why can't God be the same way? It's obvious Phat, your dad, his love for you and the $20 bill are real and they exist. What you call God is not real and does not exist. If he did, the $20 bill would have been unnecessary, the sky daddy would have sorted it first because his imaginary love for you is infinite.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Phat Member Posts: 18298 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Thanks for that dose of cynicism! Makes me feel a whole lot better! You believe that there is no rescuer. And if I give up hope I too can be glad to be in touch with reality, eh? How encouraging!
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith
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ringo Member (Idle past 432 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
Even Noah had to build his own ark.
You believe that there is no rescuer.
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Phat Member Posts: 18298 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Noah didn't have to do anything! He chose to do it because he was obviously an animal lover. The rest of us drowned though.
This whole argument is all about having to do everything ourselves or receiving help. I vote help. That's one reason I am a believer. It seems that counting on people isnt enough. Edited by Phat, : No reason given.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith
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Tangle Member Posts: 9504 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.7
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Phat writes: Thanks for that dose of cynicism! It's not cynicism; it's just the way it is. You know that a cynic is what an idealist calls a realist?
Makes me feel a whole lot better!
Well it should, understanding that there is no arsehole looking down on you threatening the worst torture imaginable just because you got born is rather positive.
You believe that there is no rescuer. And if I give up hope I too can be glad to be in touch with reality, eh? How encouraging! I believe that I'm not drowning so I'm not in need of rescue. As soon as you realise that, it's all fair sailing. Why do you need to give up hope? Just get on with living a good life - it's not a complicated thing, religion has made a mess of your head. If there is a god, just living the best life you can MUST be enough for him - if it's something else then he's not the god you believe in anyway. Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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