Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
3 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,817 Year: 3,074/9,624 Month: 919/1,588 Week: 102/223 Day: 13/17 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   The Tension of Faith
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 316 of 1540 (821869)
10-13-2017 8:17 PM
Reply to: Message 315 by Faith
10-13-2017 8:12 PM


Re: Conversations with Faith on faith.
Faith writes:
Wait and see.
Which once again simply ignores reality or the issues raised. That is not discussion, not debate, but once again the pattern of simply failing to address issues or respond reasonably.
The fact remains that there is no such thing as "The Bible" and that humans wrote the stories in the Bible and that the author of Matthew took Old Testament material out of context and that really are no honest references to Jesus or prophecies about Jesus in the Old Testament and that there are contradictions and factual errors in the Biblical tales.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 315 by Faith, posted 10-13-2017 8:12 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 317 by Faith, posted 10-13-2017 8:24 PM jar has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 317 of 1540 (821870)
10-13-2017 8:24 PM
Reply to: Message 316 by jar
10-13-2017 8:17 PM


Re: Conversations with Faith on faith.
Flat-out biased assertions, your M.O., aren't debate either.
And again, time will tell.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 316 by jar, posted 10-13-2017 8:17 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 318 by jar, posted 10-13-2017 9:01 PM Faith has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 318 of 1540 (821873)
10-13-2017 9:01 PM
Reply to: Message 317 by Faith
10-13-2017 8:24 PM


Re: Conversations with Faith on faith.
Faith writes:
Flat-out biased assertions, your M.O., aren't debate either.
Once again Faith, reality simply shows you are wrong. There is the Protestant Canon and the Roman Catholic Canon and the Ethiopian Long Canon and the Ethiopian Short Canon and the Eritrean Canon and the Samaritan Canon and ...
Each Canon was the product of humans. Each Canon selected different stories to be included or excluded. None of the New Testament appears in all the Canons and the only books that are common to all the canon are the first five books of the Old Testament.
Those are facts Faith, not just assertions.
We have had whole threads devoted to the claimed Prophecies about Jesus and not one, not a single one stood up to examination.
That's a fact Faith, not just an assertion.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 317 by Faith, posted 10-13-2017 8:24 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 319 by Faith, posted 10-13-2017 9:13 PM jar has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 319 of 1540 (821875)
10-13-2017 9:13 PM
Reply to: Message 318 by jar
10-13-2017 9:01 PM


Re: Conversations with Faith on faith.
You have a very strange idea of "reality." All you are doing as usual is just basically namecalling.
Different canons means simply a few different books among them, what's the big deal? Various candidates for the canon were proposed down the centuries. I thik we can trust that the Protestant Reformers got it right in the end. Or if you can't, who cares anyway.
Standing up to your examination is a pretty meaningless standard. Or any unbeliever's standard. The OT messianic prophecies are affirmed by the New Testament and the whole history of the Church. The Church gets the final say, and all you upstarts at EvC have nothing whatever to say about it.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 318 by jar, posted 10-13-2017 9:01 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 320 by jar, posted 10-13-2017 9:20 PM Faith has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 320 of 1540 (821876)
10-13-2017 9:20 PM
Reply to: Message 319 by Faith
10-13-2017 9:13 PM


Re: Conversations with Faith on faith.
Faith writes:
You have a very strange idea of "reality." All you are doing as usual is just basically namecalling.
Once again, reality says you are simply wrong. I have not called anyone names.
Faith writes:
Different canons means simply a few different books among them, what's the big deal? Various candidates for the canon were proposed down the centuries. I thik we can trust that the Protestant Reformers got it right in the end. Or if you can't, who cares anyway.
Again, the FACT, not assertion, is that there are different canons and the Protestant Canon has no more authority or legitimacy than any other Canon. They are NOT all the same.
That is a fact Faith, not an assertion.
Faith writes:
Standing up to your examination is a pretty meaningless standard. Or any unbeliever's standard. The OT messianic prophecies are affirmed by the New Testament and the whole history of the Church. The Church gets the final say, and all you upstarts at EvC have nothing whatever to say about it.
So once again, your only response is to declare yourself correct and present absolutely no evidence or support for your position.
There is no such thing as "The Church" just as there is no such thing as "The Bible".

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 319 by Faith, posted 10-13-2017 9:13 PM Faith has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 321 of 1540 (821882)
10-14-2017 8:17 AM
Reply to: Message 304 by Faith
10-13-2017 2:40 PM


Re: This is not the time to question the premise
Percy writes:
Conclusion follows from premise and that is certainly a very simple logical point. You don't need to believe the premise for the logic to be true.
You're doing the same thing to me that you're doing to Jar, giving short and empty one or two sentence answers to posts of great detail. I not only showed your premises wrong, I showed your logic wrong. This thread is becoming yet another case of, "Faith declares her position, and having declared it is done and for the remainder of the thread will be repeating that she is right and you are wrong." If that's all you're going to do could you get off the thread?
Here are the major points from my Message 296 that you're ignoring:
  • You're ignoring Ringo's question from Message 279. Basically it comes down to how the flawed judgment of the fallen mind (even you concede the regenerated mind can backslide at any time) be relied upon to judge the Bible true?
  • How can the the obvious errancy of the Bible be judged true by the flawed judgement of a fallen mind?
  • How do you explain your use of two different definitions of faith, one that requires evidence and one that doesn't? Faith in an inerrant Bible? No evidence needed. Faith in an inerrant Global Flood? The evidence is everywhere.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 304 by Faith, posted 10-13-2017 2:40 PM Faith has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 322 of 1540 (821891)
10-14-2017 11:45 AM
Reply to: Message 302 by Phat
10-13-2017 2:33 PM


Re: The Poof Is In The Pudding
Phat writes:
Atoms make the most sense to me. They are what makes up things that are seen and yet they themselves are unseen.
It may make sense now but the question is: Did the concept of atoms even occur to the writers of the New Testament? It seems unlikely.
As I pointed out, verse 3 says that the universe was created by God's words, which are unseen. And as New Cat's Eye pointed out, the broader context is about faith, which is unseen.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 302 by Phat, posted 10-13-2017 2:33 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 323 of 1540 (821892)
10-14-2017 11:52 AM
Reply to: Message 303 by Faith
10-13-2017 2:39 PM


Re: I've Fallen And I Cant Get Up
Faith writes:
Seems to me the fallen mind must possess a mere shadow of its original powers of understanding and knowledge.
You're contradicting God. He said that Adam and Eve had become more like Him. That's an increase in understanding, not a decrease.
Faith writes:
Since the regeneration of the new birth gives us the intuitive knowledge of the basic truths of the Christian revelation, there must originally have been an ability to intuitively grasp all kinds of truths we no longer possess.
Since your premise is wrong, your conclusion is unreliable - a sure sign of an "unregenerated" mind.
It's funny how self-styled Christians claim to have a superior understanding when they can't even read their own Book.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 303 by Faith, posted 10-13-2017 2:39 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 324 by Faith, posted 10-14-2017 12:43 PM ringo has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 324 of 1540 (821895)
10-14-2017 12:43 PM
Reply to: Message 323 by ringo
10-14-2017 11:52 AM


Carry on without me
You are not in a position to say the premise is wrong. No unbeliever can do that, you're just displaying the usual pernicious anti-Christian EvC bias, as are jar and Percy. Believers just ignore such arrogant stupidities and that's what I'm going to do now, so you all can just go on patting each other's backs and pursuing your delusions with each other.
However, again, the logic is correct for the premise as given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 323 by ringo, posted 10-14-2017 11:52 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 325 by ringo, posted 10-14-2017 12:54 PM Faith has not replied
 Message 326 by jar, posted 10-14-2017 12:58 PM Faith has not replied
 Message 327 by Percy, posted 10-14-2017 3:13 PM Faith has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 325 of 1540 (821896)
10-14-2017 12:54 PM
Reply to: Message 324 by Faith
10-14-2017 12:43 PM


Re: Carry on without me
Faith writes:
You are not in a position to say the premise is wrong.
Sure I am. The premise is a direct contradiction of your own Book, which you claim is inerrant. If the Book is right, there was no Fall; there was no degeneration to regenerate. The Fall was made up by humans.
Faith writes:
However, again, the logic is correct for the premise as given.
Since the premise is wrong, it doesn't even matter if the logic is correct. You might as well say, "Since all dogs are black, France doesn't exist." Garbage in, garbage out.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 324 by Faith, posted 10-14-2017 12:43 PM Faith has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 326 of 1540 (821897)
10-14-2017 12:58 PM
Reply to: Message 324 by Faith
10-14-2017 12:43 PM


Posting the truth whether you are here or not.
Faith writes:
No unbeliever can do that, you're just displaying the usual pernicious anti-Christian EvC bias, as are jar and Percy.
Once again, reality simply shows you are wrong. I am not displaying any anti-Christian bias since the reality, the fact, the truth is that I am and continue to be a Cradle Creedal Christian.
Faith writes:
However, again, the logic is correct for the premise as given.
Even if that were true, which of course reality shows your position is not true, reality trumps logic. It's very possible to have a logical statement that is factually wrong and when people make claims like Biblical Inerrancy that do not stand up when compared to reality your imagined logical assertions are simply wrong.
The God character in the Genesis 2&3 stories does not show a fall, does not show a separation, does not show a fallen mind but rather specifically says that thanks to the gift in the Garden of Eden human minds were expanded and improved to be god-like.
I have to ask Faith, have you ever actually read Genesis 2&3?
quote:
Genesis 3:22 And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil:

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 324 by Faith, posted 10-14-2017 12:43 PM Faith has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 327 of 1540 (821901)
10-14-2017 3:13 PM
Reply to: Message 324 by Faith
10-14-2017 12:43 PM


Re: Carry on without me
Faith writes:
You are not in a position to say the premise is wrong. No unbeliever can do that,...
So in other words, no premise stated by Faith can be questioned. You're Trumpian in your megalomania.
Believers just ignore such arrogant stupidities and that's what I'm going to do now, so you all can just go on patting each other's backs and pursuing your delusions with each other.
I can't believe God was in any way guiding you as you wrote those intolerant and ungenerous words. If you truly have a regurgitated mind then it shows up but rarely.
Anyway, in yet another big surprise, Faith abandons yet another thread, and since she's changed her status to inactive I presume she's abandoning EvC Forum, too. Well, if history is any guide (as it already is in this very thread), for Faith leaving is just a strategy that enables her to abandon all the discussions she was losing so she can return and start fresh in new threads making the same points and pretending that they weren't already rebutted in the old threads.
However, again, the logic is correct for the premise as given.
As was demonstrated in Message 321 and Message 296, none of the substance of either did you ever reply to, both your premise and logic were wrong.
You know, it is possible to disagree with people without completely losing it. You explained your position very carefully and thoughtfully in your Message 281, and with a complete absence of malice and hostility, then that all went away in your very next response.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 324 by Faith, posted 10-14-2017 12:43 PM Faith has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 351 by Aussie, posted 10-16-2017 1:42 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
Paboss
Member (Idle past 1765 days)
Posts: 55
Joined: 10-01-2017


(2)
Message 328 of 1540 (821903)
10-14-2017 5:12 PM
Reply to: Message 294 by Faith
10-13-2017 7:22 AM


Re: I've Fallen And I Cant Get Up
Faith,
Although you took the effort to answer all of my questions, which I appreciate, your answers are not satisfactory and give me no good reasons to accept believing in a god which looks rather evil when looking at his sacred book.
Faith writes:
I'd like to tell you some questions I have:
Why does the bible 'look' contradictory?
Probably mostly because it's ancient, cultures were different then, and we have a bad habit of imposing our own assumptions on it instead of learning about its frame of reference. Another answer is that the fallen mind misreads things.
I guess you can get away with it in a few cases, but there’re plenty of contradictions like the two different deaths of Judas. There are not assumptions to impose there and no frame of reference that could make two different versions of an event true. And there is no shortage of examples like this. I am aware this is not a topic to discuss the accuracy of the bible (or lack thereof), but I just want to point that when the bible is this contradictory there is no reason to believe it is divinely inspired by an all knowing being, and therefore no reason no blindly follow its doctrines.
Faith writes:
Why does it 'look' homophobic?
Homophobia is a bogus concept invented in the last half century. The Bible says homosexual acts are sin and that was the common understanding in cultures around the world until very recently.
You are wrong. Homophobia as a concept may have been invented recently, but the problem it describes is old. It was not a common understanding among different cultures around the world; there has been a range between acceptance as something normal and punishment by death. Any guess in which end of the spectrum your belief system sits? Fall or no fall a loving god would know better than to order the killing of people who didn’t even choose their sexual orientation. This stupid prejudice of primitive Christianity has made miserable the lives of countless persons through history. There is no excuse for that.
Faith writes:
Why does it 'look' misogynist?
Because the world was corrupted by the Fall, which put women under subjection to their husbands as part of Eve's punishment for disobeying God, and you can see this played out in all cultures across the world until quite recently, though it still is the case in most places. Christ treated women humanely, which offended his disciples, but His example became the basis for more and more humane treatment of women in Christian countries. Our fallen nature dies hard nevertheless.
Similarly to previous point, in different cultures through history the role of women varies in importance with your beloved Abrahamic tradition in the extreme of making of the woman second class persons (or objects, rather) belonging to men. No matriarchy as such has been documented but in other societies women fared a lot better. The attitude of Jesus is better than in the old testament and is reflection of the change of times, but Paul, who is supposedly inspired by Jesus, said that women were not to teach men but be submissive. Then he goes on to bring up the story of eve which is an invention to justify this sick extreme of sexism. I understand you are a woman; doesn’t this annoy you at all? How many brilliant minds have been annulated through history by this pathetic doctrine?
Faith writes:
Why does it 'seem' to endorse slavery?
Because you are imposing your modern view on it. When it was written slavery was universal and the main way for debts to be paid off. The Bible gave laws to protect the slaves from abuse which otherwise was common, and also required the Israelites to free their slaves after a certain time. But when Christ came the general idea of emancipating slaves came with Him, as Paul wrote to one slave owner; but it didn't become culturally acceptable until recent times, and still predominantly in Christian societies. It still exists in more places than you are probably aware of.
Of course it was universal and normal at the time. But human morality has improved over time and now we know better than that. But of course your god, who has been around forever and knows it all, did not anticipate that we would get past that horrible practice. And the biblical laws that you allude to, did not worked very well as testimonials from the treatment of African American slaves by their Christian masters reveal.
The freeing of the Israelite slaves had a catch, though: If they got married and had children while at the service of their masters they could go free but they could not take their families with them. If they wanted to keep their families they had to stay slaves for life. There were other biblical laws like how to get sexual slaves for example. With Jesus things did not improve that much. There was no general idea of emancipating slaves as you think; rather Paul tells the slaves to serve their masters with all their strength and even more if their masters were believers. I don’t recall any verses from Paul writing to a slave owner encouraging emancipation of slaves; could you please provide the quote? It would have been really helpful for so many people that have been enslaved through history if the bible had simply said that slavery is not ok.
Faith writes:
Why the genocides and deaths of innocent infants and animals?
Animals are innocent but for our sake God put them under the curse brought about by the Fall, our first parents' disobedience of God. Infants, however, aren't innocent, as we all are born in sin because of the Fall. I don't think we are going to fully understand all that until Jesus comes again, but it must be something along the lines of God's understanding that we inherit sin from our parents and all the way back to Adam and Eve, so that to let infants live is to invite them to grow up and repeat the sins for which their parents are being punished. It would have to be a pretty horrible sin for that to be decreed of course. God knows things we don't know, although we could learn it from the Bible, which clearly says we inherit sin.
God put animals under curse; something that did not have to happen except if he is the bloodthirsty being that the bible depicts. And regarding human infants, what are they guilty of? How can someone be guilty and deserve eternal suffering simply for having been born? Why didn’t god stopped us from being born if he knew we would end up in Hell? By your logic we should all have died as kids and that would be a favour from god. Is that how you rationalize the deaths of children that happen all the time?
Faith writes:
Why does the god of the Old Testament 'seem' to have the character of a spoiled little child looking for attention?
He doesn't. That's an evil idea concocted by corrupted modern man who interprets everything psychologically so that there is not much left of the Moral Law and true Justice. Actually it's such an evil idea it must have been Satan's invention originally.
Satan looks a lot less evil than God in the bible. Revelation shows god surrounded by all kinds of living beings worshipping him without rest. He wanted the Israelites to love him above all, and obey all his precepts, or else. It was everything about him: If they wanted to pick another religion or costumes, big deal; if they worked on Saturday, big deal; if they worshiped him the wrong way, big deal. If they spoke against him, big deal. If that is not a spoiled little kid’s attitude, I don’t know what else is.
Faith writes:
Why was it necessary to invent hell?
It was invented for the fallen angels, Satan's hordes, but human beings who follow the lead of Satan by rebelling against God are going to share it with them. Would you really want to live in a unverse in which horrible sins and crimes were not to be punished?
Is not about what I want, but about what it is. And I don’t think anyone deserves an eternity of torture for a single lifetime of bad decisions. Besides that your doctrine puts together in Hell people who committed horrible crimes with children who died without accepting Jesus; How is that fair? Hitler tortured and killed people for years and that made him a repulsive person. Your god will torture for eternity 99% of people who has ever lived; who is the worst monster here? Do you picture yourself in heaven singing songs to this monster without end? After being at that for a couple million years won’t you spare a thought for those that have been suffering horrible tortures for that time? Will you as a perfect and loving being be happy about it?
Faith writes:
No, because I know God's character and I know that even very severe Justice is a kindness in this fallen world; and you are just being an arrogant modern person who refuses to respect justice and genuine authority. In a word you are culture-bound in a corrupted society that puts man above God.
Lots of modern concepts were invented by the devil for the express purpose of discrediting God, which is of course the devil's normal business anyway: it's what he did to Eve after all, and it worked well in your case too.
I’m not arrogant; I’m just trying to think logically here and find the truth wherever it leads. I’ll tell you something in all humility: if I am wrong, by all means, show me how is that. So far you haven’t shown me that alleged loving side of god, I can’t certainly see it in his sacred book. If this is the work of Satan do discredit God, he has done a hell of a job there. The bible must then by inspired by Satan because that book is not making your god any favours whatsoever.
Edited by Paboss, : Corrected a couple of spelling mistakes

This message is a reply to:
 Message 294 by Faith, posted 10-13-2017 7:22 AM Faith has not replied

  
kbertsche
Member (Idle past 2131 days)
Posts: 1427
From: San Jose, CA, USA
Joined: 05-10-2007


Message 329 of 1540 (821909)
10-15-2017 5:17 AM
Reply to: Message 307 by Faith
10-13-2017 4:36 PM


Re: Conversations with Faith on faith.
Faith writes:
You're right, it does have to work as a sign to Ahaz, and I'm sure it does but I don't care to research it right now. Even so, it is definitely a prophecy of the virgin birth of the Messiah, because the New Testament says so, and the traditional Church says so, for a couple of millennia already, and they have a lot more authority than any unbeliever.
I believe that Is 7:14 is a good example of a "multiple fulfillment" of prophecy; in this case, it is a "double fulfillment".
The first fulfillment was in Isaiah's day, within just a few years of the prophecy being given. (This is clear from Is 7:16ff.) The second fulfillment was with Jesus, a few centuries later.
So was the first fulfillment also a virgin birth? The first fulfillment is explained in different ways, but I believe it refers to a woman who was a virgin at the time of the PROPHECY, but not at the time of the child's BIRTH. I believe the woman got married and had a child in the normal way. This is probably the birth described in Is. 8:3.
Edited by kbertsche, : No reason given.
Edited by kbertsche, : No reason given.

"Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." — Albert Einstein
I am very astonished that the scientific picture of the real world around me is very deficient. It gives us a lot of factual information, puts all of our experience in a magnificently consistent order, but it is ghastly silent about all and sundry that is really near to our heart, that really matters to us. It cannot tell us a word about red and blue, bitter and sweet, physical pain and physical delight; it knows nothing of beautiful and ugly, good or bad, God and eternity. Science sometimes pretends to answer questions in these domains, but the answers are very often so silly that we are not inclined to take them seriously. — Erwin Schroedinger

This message is a reply to:
 Message 307 by Faith, posted 10-13-2017 4:36 PM Faith has not replied

  
foreveryoung
Member (Idle past 582 days)
Posts: 921
Joined: 12-26-2011


Message 330 of 1540 (821910)
10-15-2017 7:08 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by Tangle
09-19-2017 9:38 AM


Hell is separation from God. No one is separated from God now, although many barely feel his presence. Remember the intense joys you had as a child? That was Gods presence.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by Tangle, posted 09-19-2017 9:38 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 331 by Tangle, posted 10-15-2017 8:10 AM foreveryoung has not replied
 Message 332 by Percy, posted 10-15-2017 8:28 AM foreveryoung has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024