The Tension of Faith

Percy responds to my request that he prove Gods functionality by saying this:"You tell me how to prove the Flying Spaghetti Monster fictional and I'll prove God fictional. Deal?".What do we know about the FSM? Is there source material about him? Has anyone claimed to have seen the FSM? What did they say about their encounter with him?
How many people have claimed to have had encounters with the FSM?What do we know about the God of the Bible? Is there any source material about him?
Has anyone claimed to have seen the God of the Bible? What did they say about their encounter with him? How many people have claimed to have had encounters with the God of the Bible?There is a wealth of material related to the God of the Bible and the only material related to the FSM is from atheists who merely conjured him as a debating point and as a way to say the possibility of the God of the Bible being real is just as likely as the reality of the FSM.That is quite an astonishing claim to make as there is virtually nothing anyone has ever said about the FSM by way of definition.The FSM monster is real as defined by the following:It is merely a debating device and doesn't exist in anyone's mind as deity and has only come into existence in the last decade or possibly two.

Percy has acknowledged that he cannot prove the God of the Bible doesn't exist but defends himself with this philosophical statement:"We don't assume something exists until it is proven that it doesn't. Rather, we only assume something exists when overt evidence for it is uncovered."You made a declarative statement that God is a fictionality. I asked you to prove it. You respond by saying we don't assume something exists until overt evidence for it is uncovered.More to come as time permits. I have very little time as you can see by how little I post here and so this may be the last post in a long time.
First, I didn't ask you to assume anything. I was making statements about God to make my point about hell. People were attacking poster faith for believing God tortures people in eternity for simply being born to the wrong parents and being exposed to the wrong belief system.I thought this line of attack was unfair in that some Christians like me hold a different interpretation of the Bible regarding Gods judgement and the afterlife. In order to comment on such things, you must reference the God of the Bible. Saying that God is not proven to exist, does not engage the topic at hand in any way. If we cannot reference the God of the Bible in our religious arguments, then there should be a forum rule that states all references to the God of the Bible are strictly forbidden unless you can prove his existence. You might as well have a forum that is for any belief system outside of the God of the Bible. Demanding proof for God's existence when offering an interpretation of the Bible regarding judgement and the afterlife is ridiculous.As for not assuming something exists until overt evidence is uncovered, that is a reasonable demand to make in most instances. Edited by foreveryoung, : No reason given.Edited by foreveryoung, : No reason given.

No, of course there is no source material related to the God of the Bible just as there is no "God of the Bible". There are absolutely not original manuscripts of any material in any of the many different "Bibles" created by the different chapters of Club Christian.There are stories written by unknown authors that contain various tales of encounters with God but they are often inconsistent, shown to evolve over time and retelling and contradictory.

We've gone through this before and your views are simply theistic and could be consistent with most faiths.

Yes, you have made that claim and the only issue is of course that just as with the Bible you are simply taking things out of context.The fact is that I am a Christian and thus my position is a Christian position.Sorry Charlie but thems the facts.

I was just pointing out what the words actually mean. Your made-up special meaning for Jesus' resurrection is not valid.

What is it that is specific to Christianity that you believe? What would cause you to believe that it is better to follow Jesus as opposed to following Mahatma Gandhi?

Instead of just saying that I got it wrong can you tell us how you have it right?

Well as a Creedal Christian I believe the basics found in the Nicene Creed. Well, Gandhi never started a religion so I am not at all sure what you are asking. And why should I believe that the Path I choose is a better path than that chosen by others? After all, Jesus was never a Christian, Jesus was born, raised and died a Jew. Christianity is a religion created by others, not by Jesus.

Hi ForEverYoung,Gee, four replies from a single person to one of my messages - I think that's some kind of record for me. I'll reply to them all in this message.From ForEverYoung's Message 359: Why don't you answer the original question? If, as you say, Hell is separation from God, then how does one ever gain separation from an entity that permeates the universe?If you're interpretation isn't made up, then tell us what passage of the Bible you're interpreting.From ForEveryYoung's Message 360: Why are you addressing me in the 3rd person in a message that's a reply to me? Generally in such contexts you refer to the person you're addressing as "you". I don't believe the Bible has no value, but Hell is a fictional place. You didn't provide any such references in making your pronouncement that "Hell is separation from God," why should I? How could I, given that I have to idea what passages you're using? Plus there's still my unanswered question about how there could ever be separation from an entity that permeates the universe. All books were and are written by men and/or women. What is your evidence behind, "I believe the Bible to be inspired by God"? That's a good point. After arguing with Faith I tend to forget that not all religious believers think faith is backed by hard evidence. If your belief that the Bible is inspired by God is based upon faith (where faith means not having evidence for what you believe) then that's fine. But I don't believe the Bible is complete rubbish. I believe it is a book written by men that contains much knowledge and wisdom (and also a lot of crap), but that is not the inspired Word of God. Well, that's great. You can start by referencing the Biblical passages that support your contention that, "Hell is separation from God."From ForEverYoung's Message 361: Please see the Wikipedia article on the Flying Spaghetti Monster. Please see Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster: Sighting off the Angolan Coast. It references a New Scientist article titled ‘Flying spaghetti monster’ caught on video off the Angolan coast. I don't know. Is a minimum number required? I'm not familiar with the rules for evaluating encounters with fictional beings. That he's a damn son-of-a-bitch who lightened up quite a bit in the NT? Uncountable numbers of people have claimed to have seen God. And ghosts. And UFOs. Why don't you just say what's true, that your belief in God is based upon unshakeable faith. What more need be said? Ah, geez, now why did you have to go and say that? No one said anything disparaging about Paul making up a religion out of whole cloth.From ForEverYoung's Message 362: Is there anything else besides God that even in the absence of evidence you believe exists anyway? Leprechauns, perhaps? Witches, since they're in the Bible plus we're getting close to Halloween? Just a quick reminder, you still haven't provided any Biblical passages supporting your statement about Hell. "God tortures people in eternity"? And you worship this being? Are you sure you didn't mean the Devil? Well, wait a minute here. I said I would back off on requesting evidence because real faith doesn't require evidence. To me faith is having no evidence but believing anyway. But if you're going to take a stance identical to Faith's that evidence exists for the existence of God and everything else in the Bible (you just stated that you've proven God exists), then discussion of the evidence backing your faith seems very much a fair topic in a thread titled The Tension of Faith. Well now you've gone off in the opposite direction. First you say you *can* prove God exists, now you say it's ridiculous to demand proof of God. Which is it? It's a reasonable demand in science threads, but this isn't a science thread. This thread is in the Faith and Belief forum. So whether evidence is relevant to this discussion is wholly dependent upon whether you belief your faith is supported by evidence.--Percy

Do you believe this part of the Nicene creed?

quote:

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.....he was crucified for us under Pontius Pilate, and suffered, and was buried, and the third day he rose again, according to the Scriptures, and ascended into heaven, and sitteth on the right hand of the Father;
from thence he shall come again, with glory, to judge the quick and the dead. ;
whose kingdom shall have no end.

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Of course Jesus was born and died a Jew. Just as certainly however is the fact that His whole mission was to reform Judaism. There was the branch of Judaism that did not accept the reformation as presented by Jesus, but there was also the group that did. The ones that did met on their own and quickly followed through with taking it to the Gentiles as well and that group became the root of the Christian church.Gandhi espoused agreed with the social message of Christianity and said that by being a good Hindu he would also be a good Christian. He however was very critical of Christians particularly after his experience with apartheid in South Africa. He often quoted Jesus.If Jesus was not resurrected then He was as I said simply another failed messiah and as Jesus and Gandhi preached essentially the same message then there is no more reason tho be a Christian and there is to be a Gandhian.

There you go taking pieces parts out of context yet again.And that is where I see your version of Christianity diminishing and perverting Christianity.I have already said that I believe the Nicene Creed, but I also don't take pieces parts out of it. Of course there is no such thing as a Ghandian and I too am often critical of Christians and much of Christianity.And if you believe the teaching of Christianity hinges on Jesus death, resurrection and ascension then I think you too have simply missed the whole point of Jesus life.A pity.But that does not mean you are not a Christian, just a somewhat failed Christian.

I did. Resurrection means rising from the dead. It doesn't have special Christian connotations that some denominations accept and others don't. You can pretend that Jesus was special but you can't pretend that the word resurrection applies only to Him.

That's nonsense. What you are saying is that you accept the parts of the Nicene Creed which you accept.Again, what is it that you believe that is specifically Christian and couldn't just as easily be part of any other religion. Sure, I have no problem with you calling yourself a Christian, but it is cultural Christianity that you follow which isn't a bad thing. I have never claimed, just the opposite in fact, that that is the whole point of Jesus' life. However, without the resurrection Jesus is simply a failed messiah, and there is no more reason to give Him credibility as part of the godhead than Gandhi.

Would you say that Lazarus was resurrected? Would you say that someone who dies on the operating table and is brought back to life is resurrected. Do you see any differences in the Biblical account of the resurrection of Jesus and Lazarus being brought back to life?