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Author Topic:   What Benefits Are Only Available Through God?
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 139 of 438 (800943)
03-02-2017 8:44 AM
Reply to: Message 138 by ringo
03-01-2017 3:06 PM


Re: Why I try to Help Others
ringo writes:
And it seems to be going in the opposite direction from what you claim. The unconscious mind seems to have a lot more influence than we used to think.
How so?
I think conscious decisions are possible.
I also think most decisions are unconscious.
This seems to be exactly what the science is saying right now... and exactly where it is leading.
So, which part is opposite to the direction I'm claiming?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 138 by ringo, posted 03-01-2017 3:06 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 140 by ringo, posted 03-02-2017 10:56 AM Stile has replied

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


(1)
Message 141 of 438 (801017)
03-02-2017 3:32 PM
Reply to: Message 140 by ringo
03-02-2017 10:56 AM


Re: Why I try to Help Others
ringo writes:
You said that FULLY conscious decisions are possible. Show us where science is leading in that direction.
I don't think you understand.
I stopped using the FULLY because it is redundant and therefore unnecessary. Not because conscious decisions are coerced by some-level-of unconscious desires.
Here's the basic definitions from the scientific/academic side of things:
Conscious Motivation
Book Definition: Having the desire to engage in an activity and being aware of the desire.
  • Knowing that you are motivated to do something.
  • Choosing to do something and knowing exactly why you want to.
  • Deciding to take part in an activity and recognizing your interest in it.
  • Doing something you like and know you are doing it because you want to.
That's exactly what I was talking about when I used the term "FULLY conscious."
For reference, here's the other one, too:
Unconscious Motivation
Book Definition: Having a desire to engage in an activity but being consciously unaware of the desire.
  • Wanting to do something but being unaware why you want to do it.
  • Not knowing why you are motivated to do something.
  • May not be aware of the drives or motives underlying their behavior.
  • Preforming an action and not knowing that you are doing it.
  • Engaging in an activity and not knowing why you partcipated in it.
The idea that people used to think they made 80% conscious decisions and 20% unconscious... but not we know it's much closer to the other way around (or so... anyway... I just made up those numbers)... This shift doesn't indicate that conscious decision are going to disappear completely.
It's like living in the mid-continent plains before you new much about world geography. Maybe you thought the world was 70% land and 30% water... but it's actually more accurately the opposite direction.
This idea by no means indicates that science will one day find that "FULLY land" areas do not exist...
Quite the contrary, the science pretty much accepts that "FULLY land" areas exist... just not as much as water-covered areas.
Same with conscious motivations.
The science accepts that "FULLY conscious choices" (aka "conscious motivations") exist... just not as much as unconscious motivations.
Science is only heading "in the direction" of the vague ideas I've discussed on why we have conscious motivations....
But on the topic of the existence of conscious motivation (what I've been calling "FULLY conscious" decisions..) the science is already there.
Unless you can provide some reviewed literature to the contrary? I'm not able to find any.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 140 by ringo, posted 03-02-2017 10:56 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 142 by ringo, posted 03-03-2017 10:48 AM Stile has replied

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 143 of 438 (801343)
03-05-2017 10:18 AM
Reply to: Message 142 by ringo
03-03-2017 10:48 AM


What's the difference?
I think we've been over this many times already.
And this is as far as I'm willing to continue along these lines for this thread.
I think I've explained why I do good things, and also shown how the science of modern psychology supports my position.
You seem to disagree.
There is a discussion to be had here... but it would be more fitting under a topic of "where does morality come from" or a new topic on the understanding of modern psychology where decision making is concerned... or maybe even a thread about whether or not reality is strictly determined on the level of physics. But, regardless of where it should be... it's getting too far off the topic to be here.
Getting back on topic, where this stream of thought stemmed from, my original question is still unanswered.
If anyone has any comment or explanation for the following question, please feel free to respond:
Stile writes:
Can (anyone) explain how me trying to help others is different from Jesus trying to help others?
Message 98
Or continue to discuss anything else that relates to some sort of specific difference only available through God or a particular religion.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 142 by ringo, posted 03-03-2017 10:48 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 144 by ringo, posted 03-05-2017 1:20 PM Stile has seen this message but not replied
 Message 145 by Phat, posted 03-28-2017 12:21 PM Stile has replied

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 147 of 438 (803287)
03-28-2017 1:48 PM
Reply to: Message 145 by Phat
03-28-2017 12:21 PM


Re: What's the difference?
Phat writes:
Stile writes:
Can (anyone) explain how me trying to help others is different from Jesus trying to help others?
For one thing, we read that Jesus healed people. Can we claim the same ability?
Well, in the context of the above quote - no, I cannot.
But I must question as to the appropriate-ness of your question.
What are you attempting to say?
My answer is, "No - I cannot do miraculous healing such as depicted by Jesus in the Bible."
Now, what do we do with this?
Does this mean I shouldn't even try to help people?
I can see how miraculous healing would make Jesus' helping "better" than mine... in a faster, more efficient sense.
But I don't see how it makes Jesus' helping "better" than my helping in a 'trying-to-better-our-shared-existence' kind of sense.
...which is really what I'm talking about.
In context to the questions asked, I simply don't see how your answer applies, or the point you're trying to make.
Now, we can change context...
We can imagine you didn't quote my "me helping vs. Jesus helping" question and your statement seems to make more sense when applied to "What Benefits Are Only Available Through God?" in a more general sense.
And, I would agree with you.
Yes, miraculous healing such as depicted by Jesus in the Bible does seem to be something that is only available through God.
Or, at least, "not-available-to-anything-that-I-can-find-on-my-own."
But then we move into the next logical step down this line:
Can you show us that Jesus/God actually does this miraculous healing?
And, well, the short answer is "no, you cannot."
There is no religious sect that has all it's members in prime physical condition because their God keeps them that way.
There is no group of Christians that never has a cold because Jesus heals them all.
There is no set of believers that is immune to cancer.
Which brings us to an obvious issue in regards to your statement and the reality we live in.
Does Jesus simply no longer do miracles?
Does no one currently existing "deserve" such miracles? If so, what are the necessary qualifications and how could you possibly know them?
Is it possible that such miracles do not exist, and the Biblical depictions of the past are simply... stories? In which case, Jesus' miraculous healing power are not only available through God... as they are simply not available at all.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 145 by Phat, posted 03-28-2017 12:21 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 149 by Phat, posted 03-28-2017 5:16 PM Stile has replied

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 154 of 438 (803348)
03-29-2017 9:06 AM
Reply to: Message 149 by Phat
03-28-2017 5:16 PM


Re: What's the difference?
Phat writes:
That's why this is a Faith&Belief Forum...scientific proof is not needed.
Just because something isn't needed doesn't mean it can't add value.
My argument is that Jesus had many ways of healing depicted in the stories that men of that generation or this generation we now live in would simply be unable to duplicate.
Without something to back this up, it's not so much an "argument" as it is a "claim."
The question is "what benefits are only available through God?"
Your answer is "miraculous healing from Jesus as depicted in the Bible."
A quick look around reality clearly shows that such miraculous healing is not currently available to anyone.
Therefore, it seems that this answer is incorrect.
Not only is this miraculous healing unavailable to current followers... it's seemingly not available to anyone at all.
If you're fine with that, and relying on your Faith & Belief to carry your argument...
...that is perfectly valid for you to do. In the sense that no one is going to send the police after you.
But it seems terribly unconvincing to anyone looking for an honest answer to "what benefits are only available through God?"
Might as well answer the question with "Instant superman-like powers!!"
Both claims seem to offer the same result.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 149 by Phat, posted 03-28-2017 5:16 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 155 of 438 (803350)
03-29-2017 9:19 AM
Reply to: Message 151 by Phat
03-28-2017 5:26 PM


Re: Why I try to Help Others
Phat writes:
So how come science gets to have a paradigm shift while faith never gets that option?
I don't understand your question.
Why doesn't Faith have this option?
What's stopping Faith from having a paradigm shift?
Quite simply, what's so wrong with believing in miracles? magic, even?
That depends on what your doing with those beliefs.
If you're using those beliefs to comfort yourself, but still rely on science to actually help you... nothing's wrong at all.
If you're using those beliefs to actually help you, then you're putting your own safety at an unnecessary risk. And we end up with children dying because their parents believe modern medicine is evil.
Everyone is so bent on proving what we know and so reluctant to validate what we believe...
I don't think anyone has an issue with validating what we believe.
I think the problem is that no one is capable of validating certain beliefs. Such as "God exists."
But if there was a way to validate it... I would think that even the stoutest of scientists would jump at the chance.
So for a moment let's run with the belief in a magical God. Is this belief harmful?
Again, that depends on what those beliefs are and what you do with those beliefs.
If your belief is that God help you when you're sad, and you think of God when you're sad... and this help you be happy... then I don't see any harm at all. In fact, I see a lot of benefit to such a belief.
If your belief is that God will protect your family, and you do nothing except pray when your family is in trouble... then such a belief can be extremely harmful as your family is likely to be hurt by un-mitigated "trouble."
Has it been ruled impossible?
Again, that depends on the nature of the beliefs.
A "magical God" has not been ruled impossible. In fact, it may be impossible to make such a ruling.
However, an "all-powerful, all-beneficial God" has been ruled impossible by the existence of evil.
If so, who made the rules?
Logic and reality.
I would argue that believing in a healing does not absolve one of a responsibility to see a doctor.
Sounds like a beneficial belief that won't cause much (or possibly even "any") harm.
Also sounds like a belief that's not much different (practically speaking) from not having the belief at all.
I would argue, however, that blatant dismissal of magic as a potential and viable option---even if demonstrated no further than as a placebo effect---is unnecessary.
I would agree with this only in the specific-sense of applying it to the particularly harmless belief you provided as an example.
If you plan on expanding such a statement to a more general sense of "any/all beliefs" then I would have much to say that would show it to be a very harmful statement when applied to certain other specific beliefs.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 151 by Phat, posted 03-28-2017 5:26 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 156 by jar, posted 03-29-2017 10:36 AM Stile has seen this message but not replied

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


(1)
Message 166 of 438 (803590)
04-02-2017 10:47 AM
Reply to: Message 162 by Phat
03-31-2017 3:51 PM


Re: Facts vs. Possibilities
Phat writes:
What specific facts are you looking for?
Any and all.
As an example, take pyramid power. If it could be documented that the atmosphere within the pyramid is in fact charged with more electrical stimulus than a control box, would that somehow make pyramid power more valid as a factually based spiritual path?
I don't know enough about such things.
What is it about electrical stimulus that would lend itself to being a "more valid" spiritual path?
At times, I can be around a lot of electrical control boxes at work (I've designed, installed and used them in the past).
I didn't notice any "more valid" spiritual paths associated with them. I don't see how there's any link at all, really.
Are you claiming that the source of the spirituality is less important than the recipient of said spirituality?
This would depend on the circumstance and situation, of course.
However, as long as we have no known way to validate the identify of the source... then yes, of course.
How could we place more importance on something we have no way of knowing?
If we could, however, actually know these "sources..." then that's a whole different ball game.
One I'd very much like to understand.
But such knowledge doesn't seem to be available to us.
What else can we do other than work with what we have available to us?
a bit like the i-god syndrome.
I don't know what an i-god is
Perhaps, in the final analysis, we all are selfish to a degree.
I think selfishness depends on your own motivations.
Only you will know if you're doing something for your own sake, or to try and help someone else.
The external observations can certainly be interpreted one way or the other by many different people.
But only you know the truth.
Selfishness isn't always a bad thing, either.
Like if my wife wants to watch a movie... and she wants me to choose which one... me choosing a movie I want to watch is selfish, but not a bad thing. Me saying something like "no, you choose!" Is not selfish... but only shifts the responsibility of "choosing the movie" back onto her... something she clearly didn't want by asking me to choose the movie. Therefore, this "non-selfish" move would actually be a bad thing.
Being honest and willing to correct your possible errors is the only way to navigate such strange waters.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 162 by Phat, posted 03-31-2017 3:51 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


(1)
Message 167 of 438 (822009)
10-17-2017 12:06 PM


Specifics lost when leaving Christianity - An Article
I recently read an article on Cracked called 4 Specific Things You Lose When You Leave Christianity
Hopefully that link will stay around for a while. Cracked has a habit of altering the title's of their articles. And, since they refer to their URL by title, doing so would make my link defunct. Ah well, I do what I can.
The article was written by one Kristi Harrison.
This link to her profile says her name is "hereinidaho."
I don't know how useful that profile is, but it was linked by the article, so I linked it here as well.
This is just going to be a long, rambling post because I feel like it.
I should note that Cracked is a humour website.
Although it does sometimes try to write about serious topics, with just a bit of humour added in.
It is up to the reader to decide if this article was meant to be serious or not. I'm going to take it's themes as serious, because it's what I like to have serious talks about.
I'm going to list the 4 things the article talks about, summarize what I think they're trying to say about them, and then talk about why I think the thing can be obtained just fine without Christianity.
Article Introduction
What the article says: Kristi was a devout Christian, it was a very ingrained part of her life. She went to church more than once a week on many occasions and attended a Baptist College for school. Kristi recounts a memory about losing her belief later in life during a Bible Study on Revelations when it gets to a place describing angels and dragons. She identifies that she doesn't actually believe in angels or dragons, then reflects more on her beliefs and describes a "domino effect" of eventually losing all belief. The following specifics are things Kristi misses about believing when now she's unable to honestly believe.
What I think about it: Kristi lost a very deep, encompassing part of her life as a believer. This is going to come with some sadness and regret. Perhaps Kristi is unable to fill these voids without anything other than belief. Maybe belief in something else, or maybe she will regrettably have a huge void/hole in herself for the rest of her life. Perhaps not. I'm not going to discuss much about Kristi's personal ability to acquire a healthy spiritual life without believing in Christianity... my ramblings will be more focused on the general idea of obtaining spiritual advantages while not believing in religion. I hope that they would be applicable for Kristi, but that's up to her and her alone.
In her article, Kristi is talking about how things affected her personally. To do so is a perfectly valid and serious idea to talk about. She discusses how things are difficult for her, personally, to obtain without religion after leaving a religion that was extremely ingrained into her personal life. My response to that basically condenses down to a "well, duh..." My rambling here, however, will be more focused on how the things she brings up are easily obtainable without religion in general, because that's what I like to talk about.
4. You Miss Getting High on Worship
What the article says: Going to church was an addictive, engaging and exciting experience for Kristi. She hasn't been able to replicate this feeling anywhere else.
What I think about it: If you can't find addictive, engaging, exciting activities without religion... you're simply looking in the wrong places. What interests you? Look up some local groups that do the same thing. Get involved and go to them. This basically seems to me that Kristi hasn't been able to get friends who are supportive and loving to her as she had when she was in church.
Depending on how ingrained she was with church, this can be entirely understandable. It's hard to make new friends and new contacts as an adult with responsibilities in the current work-life of 2017. But "hard" doesn't mean "unattainable." You simply have to put some effort in.
Church had meeting times and a specific place to congregate. Many activities have these same things. The only catch is... the activity has to speak to you personally. You can't join some sports team if you don't like sports. You can't join a video-game group of people who play every night together if you don't like the video game. You have to find something that speaks to you, then find others who like the same thing. Then join in with the agreed upon times of congregation. The internet is a big place, make use of it.
Addictive, engaging, exciting activities certainly exist and are certainly attainable without religion.
If they weren't... all non-church-going people would be dull and boring. This is factually (and easily verifiably) untrue. Therefore... this is a problem of motivation, not that religion is the only place to get a socially-acceptable high.
3. You Miss Your Culture and Community
What the article says: Kristi describes how many people in her old church helped her and her family out in times of need. Money, and effort and all sorts of things.
What I think about it: People help each other all the time. With money and effort and all sorts of things. This doesn't take religion. The only point here is regarding Kristi specifically... her entire life had close friends within the church. She's now outside the church and away from those close friends and hasn't found another group of close friends yet. This dilemma is serious and devastating. But, again, just because something can be difficult to obtain for a few specific people without religion doesn't mean it can't be obtained (sometimes easily for others in other situations) without religion.
2. You Miss Magic
What the article says: Here Kristi talks about how God is "in control" of all things, has "a plan" and always there for everyone and how this takes your worries away.
What I think about it: There are 2 ways to go on this one. First, you can keep the "magic" be believing in something else... "the universe provides" is just as powerful as "God provides" if you believe in it. Of course, what if you don't believe in any such thing? Then, the result usually comes down to something like this: Second, get away from taking solace in magic, and start taking solace in non-magic.
For example: Think about how often "the magic" fails (even though it's not acknowledged in church):
God is in control and has a plan... but sometimes that plan means you get cancer and die. Or you get mugged and shot. Or you get kidnapped and placed into sexual slavery while on vacation. These are all things that actually happen to actual people. The solace of the magic isn't much solace for those people.
Then, think about what we do know:
We may not be in control of everything, but we are in control of many things. Think about what you can control, what you understand is controlled around you (by others or by nature) and how that all works to your advantage. Think about taking precautions, but also being fun and reckless in the proper situations. Feel free to go out, investigate, and learn even more.
Also, for things that don't have an answer, find solace in the community that exists because no one has the answer.
Think about it.
If we don't know what happens when we die... because there's no answer... then we all don't have that same answer.
Your boss? Doesn't know.
That guy who won 40 episodes of Jeopardy? Doesn't know.
Stephen Hawking? Doesn't know.
Sheldon from TV? Doesn't know.
Those hundreds of people in traffic with you? All don't know.
Those people right outside your office or house? All don't know.
You can't be expected to know, prepare, or be responsible for something that's completely impossible for you to know. So take solace in that. It's very helpful for me, anyway.
This part of the article, though, I really wanted to comment on specifically:
Kristi Harrison in the article writes:
This is a warning: If you're a lukewarm believer considering calling it a day on your faith, know that the warm, gooshy feeling you get after asking God to take care of your problems is irreplaceable.
I just want to point out that this is absolutely, unequivocally false.
That warm, gooshy feeling most certainly is replaceable without God. I've personally replaced it.
Is it replaceable for everyone and anyway? I don't know, I like to think so, though.
Is feeling that it is irreplaceable valid even if others can replace it? Absolutely yes. Feelings are always valid. They can be wrong... but they're always valid.
I've seen many people get frustrated and flip out when they feel they've lost this warm, gooshy feeling.
I've seen many people get completely content, satisfied and blissful when they get this warm, gooshy feeling.
I've never been witness to any description or experience that comes close to the warm, gooshy feeling I get when I take solace in the ideas I've described above in this section.
Do I have the best warm, gooshy feeling? I don't know. Maybe. Maybe not. How do you compare such a thing?
All I can say is that, again, it is absolutely, unequivocally false that this warm, gooshy feeling from God taking care of things is irreplaceable without God (or religion at all). I was religious, and now I have no religion at all... and I've replaced it with an even better warm, gooshy feeling (for me, anyway).
1. You Miss Your Best Friend
What the article says: Kristi talks about how God is always there, and believers are never alone.
What I think about it: My wife is my best friend. Even if she were to die, I'd always have the memories of our time together. She is always there with me, and I am never alone. On top of that, she's actually real, and I can try her food too when she orders something different for dinner.
Besides the fact that anyone can have a best friend without religion, there are other things going on here as well:
1 - Some people can find it creepy that God is always there, and you're "never alone." When you don't believe in religion, this creepy-factor disappears because you understand that it doesn't exist.
2 - If you feel comfort in the idea of having "someone else" know your deepest, darkest secrets or anything-and-everything about you and still love you... well, I really have found such a "someone else" in my wife. And I agree that such a person is extremely powerful and good to have around. I'd recommend finding such a person to anyone interested in such comforts.
Perhaps one day my wife will not be around and I still will be... Best friends come in all shapes and sizes though. More best friends can be found and connected with without replacing or dishonouring a previous best friend. It can be more difficult for some folks or situations with actual people involved... but, again, "difficult" does not equal "impossible."
3 - An idea of "God knowing" about certain things actually making a difference to your decisions or the way you are can be equally attained with "I honestly know." If you can be honest with yourself, and with personal reflection, it is quite possible to equal or surpass any advantages to thinking that "God knows" certain things.
Article Conclusion
What the article says: Kristi has a very frank paragraph about not being able to (currently) find comfort in science or reason and that things are very uncomfortable and weird for her in her journey of non-belief.
What I think about it: Kristi is at the very beginning of her journey of non-belief. Such serious worries and concerns as she expresses are expected and acknowledged as devastating. These facts, however daunting, do not indicate that her journey is over, or that such devastating issues cannot be overcome. The fact that many, many others have had similar, easier and harder journeys... and that many have built a foundation for a fulfilling spiritual life without religion or God is proof that such things are not impossible. They do, however, require focus and effort... as most of life's largest tasks require.
Edited by Stile, : Structure and organization

Replies to this message:
 Message 168 by Phat, posted 10-17-2017 4:08 PM Stile has replied

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 169 of 438 (822055)
10-18-2017 8:56 AM
Reply to: Message 168 by Phat
10-17-2017 4:08 PM


Re: Specifics lost when leaving Christianity - An Article
Phat writes:
I'm not afraid of losing my belief in Jesus, but I am afraid of losing any support He may offer.
This is a very interesting and multi-faceted issue.
I didn't get all the way into it with the article because there were other things to talk about. I'll try to get more in depth here:
"Support" is a nice word to use to summarize the whole idea of having a support network... a place where you know you'll be taken care of, safe and content. The "place" is also multi-faceted, there's usually a physical place (home, church, meeting-areas...) as well as a mental place in each of our mind's.
On one side, it's easy to see that many people easily have support from Jesus or Christianity or religion. It can be argued that this is the whole idea of community meetups, fellowship and congregation. In a similar vein of non-religious community, fellowship and congregation... it's also easy to see that many people have support from family or friends without Jesus or Christianity or religion.
The existence of one side and the other is easy to see that both exist, are equally easy/hard to acquire (during one's upbringing), and equally as helpful/rewarding/fulfilling.
The problem is switching from one to the other, or even from one to anything else.
It's not so much "hard to swap from Christianity into Atheism" as it is "hard to break away from the support network you've developed over the course of your entire life."
This difficulty itself is equal from Christians becoming Atheists as it is for Atheists becoming Christians.
It's not difficult for everyone, but it is for many.
The difficulty depends on how ingrained or isolated your support network really is.
What I'm saying is this:
If your support network is dedicated to a group of people that is also dedicated to your Christianity or Atheism... then it will be extremely difficult to break away from either one and rebuild a support network elsewhere.
It has nothing to do with "leaving Christianity" or even "leaving Atheism"... the point is that it's very difficult for anyone to break away from their life-long-ingrained support network.
It just so happens that, in general, religions revolve around this support network while things like Atheism do not. Therefore, someone leaving a religion (leaving Christianity) will have a much greater chance that they will also wind up having to leave their support network. A bunch of atheist friends, however, may have a greater chance of 'not caring' whether or not one friend starts believing in God... (if their atheism isn't all that important on their priority list of people-they-hang-out-with).
So, yes, getting back to your specific situation (sort of similar to the one in the article), it's very understandable that you would have great hesitations in breaking away from your support network, for obvious reasons.
Unfortunately (for helping you... fortunately for me...), my own support network was never ingrained into my religion.
So I do not have any personal experience to help me describe the situation.
When I stopped believing in God, and became an atheist, my family and friends didn't care. Some were already atheists, some were devout Christians. Some stayed wherever they were, others swapped in one direction or another. Within my support network, though... such an idea of 'being religious' or 'being atheist' isn't important... so my support network remained constant during my conversion.
Does this mean it's impossible for you to ever survive breaking away from your support network if you ever did think of moving in such a direction?
I can't say it's not impossible for you.
Many people die while having unresolved issues in their personal lives. Regrettably, such things happen and are a fact of this life. Whether or not such a fact implies you should or shouldn't even try... is up to you and you alone. I know what I'd do... but I'm not you
I can say, though, that in theory (and in practice for certain individuals) it certainly is still possible to rebuild a support-network that doesn't included God, Jesus or religion. It's not easy, though. It involves forming deep relationships with people you don't have deep relationships with right now. That takes focus and effort. It's along the lines of the age-old issue of "making new friends" while you're an adult. The stigma is that this is incredibly hard... that stigma makes it feel hard. When it feels hard to do.. it becomes hard to do.
But... a stigma is not the truth.
In my experience, a lot of people are very open to making long lasting, deep connections with new people as adults.
The child-like "I like candy... you like candy? We're best friends!!" methods do not really work... they come with a certain creepy factor.
But regularly joining in on social events (any work-related or hobby-related events you care to become associated with) will naturally ingrain you into certain friendships and, eventually, deep connections the longer and more dedicated you are to that group.
Just like being in a church for a long time and in a dedicated way.
You didn't have to tell the people of the church "Hey, I'm one of you now! We're a support network!" it grew along with your long time and dedication of remaining within that group.
The same sort of long time and dedication of remaining with any group will result in exactly the same sort of deep connections required for a fully-functioning, safe, secure, dependable support network.
It basically comes down to this:
Obviously, spending 40 years in the same church with the same people is going to be different than spending 2 weeks with some people who like to cook together and share recipes.
But, really, the opposite works just as well:
Spending 40 years cooking together and sharing recipes with the same people is going to be different than spending 2 weeks with some people who like to sing about Jesus.
The point is that "leaving Jesus's support" isn't the problem.
The problem is "leaving your support network," it just so happens that your support network revolves around Jesus.
That doesn't mean you can't even have another support network that doesn't revolve around Jesus.
But it also means you shouldn't expect something to match 40-years of dedication without giving it the same sort of time and dedication.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 168 by Phat, posted 10-17-2017 4:08 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 170 by Phat, posted 10-18-2017 12:13 PM Stile has replied

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 171 of 438 (822065)
10-18-2017 12:40 PM
Reply to: Message 170 by Phat
10-18-2017 12:13 PM


Re: Specifics lost when leaving Christianity - An Article
Phat writes:
What I am afraid of is losing the whole idea that there is help available.
My response was an attempt to show that "help is available" with or without God, Jesus and religion.
I'm not looking for a human support network.
What sort of help are you afraid of losing?
My best interpretation of the general "help" you've mentioned so far is some sort of support-network.
If you mean something else, perhaps you could try to describe it?
Maybe you mean something along the lines of "losing your best friend" (losing the idea of having Jesus/God/religion with you at all times)?
The belief in Jesus/God/religion as help is equally valid as the belief in anything else as help.
That "anything else" may be real, imaginary, or simply believed (regardless of knowing if it actually exists or not) just as Jesus/God/religion is.
Such "help" could be attained from "the universe" or "Zeus" or "the memory of this person I think is amazing" or "the idea of a perfect being" or anything like that.
But, since I'm again guessing at what you mean by "help" I'm likely missing again.
Can you describe a bit more specifically what you mean by losing "available help?"
Or... maybe in a completely different frame of mind altogether... if you don't think you're losing your belief... what makes you think you're in trouble of losing whatever "help" you get from it right now anyway? Why wouldn't help still be available from your belief... if you're not losing your belief?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 170 by Phat, posted 10-18-2017 12:13 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 172 by Phat, posted 11-19-2017 9:46 AM Stile has replied

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 173 of 438 (824066)
11-22-2017 10:27 AM
Reply to: Message 172 by Phat
11-19-2017 9:46 AM


Re: Specifics lost when leaving Christianity - An Article
Phat writes:
Quite honestly I think that I am afraid of losing my mother. She always helped me. I felt blissfully loved (and entitled) and once she is gone, I will have nothing and nobody who loved me so much.
A difficult issue.
And one most people have to face at one point or another in their lives.
The continual search for peace, solace and acceptance.
The answers are the same as they've always been, though I admit they are never easy to achieve.
Hopefully you find what you need in your religion.
Others look in different places.
When it comes down to it - you have to try and understand what, specifically, it is you need... and then move in a direction that helps achieve those goals.
I would recommend the path of truth.
Accepting (as hard as that is) that your mother will die one day, as we all will.
Then figuring out what you need from that.
Do you need a replacement? (Not a mother-replacement, that's impossible... but more a void-filling replacement).
Do you need acceptance from someone you respect?
Do you need to forget the pain in the past?
Do you need unconditional love?
Do you need familiarity?
It could be many other things...
And, as well, it could be many different things at the same time.
Once you figure out what you need, it becomes a matter of making decisions that will help achieve those goals.
For instance, if someone needed something that is only provided by another human... deciding to stay inside and never talking to anyone is not a decision that will help them achieve such a goal.
...things like that.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 172 by Phat, posted 11-19-2017 9:46 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 177 by Phat, posted 05-25-2019 9:31 AM Stile has replied

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


(1)
Message 261 of 438 (853448)
05-27-2019 2:48 PM
Reply to: Message 226 by foreveryoung
05-26-2019 10:25 PM


foreveryoung writes:
You can have these things without God but not all purposes or life meanings are equally valuable if you are seeking something that will give you the ability to withstand suffering when it inevitably comes your way.
I completely agree.
I would add a bit more clarity, though.
The idea that "not all purposes or life meanings are equally valuable" is useless in some generic absolute sense.
Unless you are able to provide a reasonable measuring system that accurately and objectively identifies how 'valuable' different life meanings or purposes actually are?
The problem is that purpose and life meanings are subjective - they are different for different people.
What may be extremely powerful for you, can be useless to another.
What may be extremely powerful for me, can be useless to you.
You seem to be implying that belief in the God of the Bible has provided you, in your life, the most powerful, purposeful meaning you've ever experienced.
I think that's great.
I also think you should continue to pursue such a thing, it's kind of rare.
However, I've tried it - and it's useless to me.
I get no meaning or purpose from an external entity. Especially one who's existence itself is... questionable. But even granting God's existence and His all-powerful-ness... I get no strength from Him no matter how sincerely I ask from Him or Jesus Christ.
I do, however, find the most powerful, purposeful meaning I've ever experienced from my family and focusing on loving them and my friends.
Which is greater? Mine or yours?
In an objective sense - I don't care, really.
I'm me and "value" is subjective. Therefore I'm the "highest authority" on what is valuable to me.
I'm constantly asking God and Jesus Christ to accept me... but they don't seem to respond, so it appears to be out of my reach.
Therefore, in the subjective sense that actually matters - the most powerful, purposeful meaning I am able to obtain is what I gain from my family and friends.
It's highly unlikely any of those purposes will give you the ability to withstand severe setbacks in life unless perhaps you abide by some philosophy like stoicism and stoicism is a poor way to live compared to a God inspired purpose.
It works for me.
And I don't abide by stoicism, either - I don't think so, anyway - I'm not fully informed on what "stoicism" would entirely entail.
I have withstood extremely sever setbacks in life. No God helped. And no God was required in order for me to make it though.
But lets say you're right... maybe believing in God does help people withstand severe setbacks in life more than other things.
What would we expect to see?
For the most part - we would expect to see some sort of significantly identifiable number of "God of the Bible Believers" who are:
-mentally stronger
-happier people
-more respected by their peers for their wisdom and ability to help
But do we see this? Anywhere?
I've never been made aware - do you know something I don't?
As far as I can tell - "God of the Bible Believers" are just like the rest of us.
-they are equally mentally strong. Some are very strong, some are very weak - just like non-God-Believers
-they are equally happy people. Some are very happy, some are very sad - just like non-God-Believers
-they are equally respected people. Some are very respected, some are very despicable - just like non-God-Believers
It seems like you can continue to claim "a better purpose" or "more meaning" as much as you like.
But - the proof is in the reality: No group of "God of the Bible Believers" is significantly doing any better than any group of "non-God-Believers."
Therefore - you're wrong about the purpose in life from believing in the God of the Bible being "better."
You very well may be right that it's the best - for you personally.
But this means nothing more than that - you found what works for you.
I suggest that all people should find what works for them.
For some, it will be believing in the God of the Bible - these people should believe in God.
For others, it will be something else - these people should pursue the alternative that will work better for them.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 226 by foreveryoung, posted 05-26-2019 10:25 PM foreveryoung has not replied

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


(1)
Message 262 of 438 (853449)
05-27-2019 3:13 PM
Reply to: Message 177 by Phat
05-25-2019 9:31 AM


Re: Specifics lost when leaving Christianity - An Article
Thugpreacha writes:
I can only say that my tears were tears of joy for the presence of Jesus.
I think this is the "feeling of enlightenment" that so many chase after in so many different ways.
Some seek thrills through dangerous activities.
Some meditate.
Some reach levels of peak performance or draining their physical strength.
Some ponder how the universe works.
The methodology of getting there seems to be different for different people. And even the ability to get there. Some can enter such a state almost at will. Others may not even be capable of getting it once in their whole life.
If only I could combine the simplistic trusting love for Jesus with the vibrant, intellectually stimulating minds of the rest of you, I would have my support group.
What is preventing you from doing this?
Or, perhaps... what do you mean by "combine?"
Doesn't the church still teach that the church, itself, is mostly meaningless? And it's Jesus and God that contain all the meaning? And they are able to follow you everywhere and anywhere?
Why can't they follow you when you have intellectually stimulating conversations?
Remember - a "support group" isn't all-powerful. It's just a bunch of other people. They can fail too. They can be wrong or sad or foolish.
A support group isn't a fail-safe. It's a crutch. It's called a "support" group. Not a "get-out-of-jail-free" group.
The idea is to understand reality and find a way to exist within it as well as possible.
Not create a fantasy and try to hide there as much as possible until reality crashes into it again.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 177 by Phat, posted 05-25-2019 9:31 AM Phat has not replied

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 314 of 438 (853715)
05-31-2019 9:28 AM
Reply to: Message 300 by Faith
05-29-2019 11:39 AM


Re: Still no evidence of ANY benefits available only through God.
Faith writes:
Jesus said He came to give us eternal llfe. You don't have to believe Him but that's the benefit He offers us. Take it or leave it.
I can get that from anywhere.
The main focus of the OP is benefits in THIS llfe, however, and I believe there are many but again there wouldn't be any evidence.
That's the point.
There isn't any difference between devout Christians and devout atheists.
Some are very smart, others not so much.
Some are very rich, others not so much.
Some are very happy, others not so much.
Some have lives filled with love and peace, others not so much.
But being a "devout Christian" or being a "devout atheist" doesn't have an impact on which category you're going to be in.
Therefore - it doesn't make a difference.
There is no benefit to being a Christian in a general, average overall sense.
There is only a benefit to being a Christian in a personal, specific, subjective sense.
Just as there is only a benefit to being an atheist in a personal, specific, subjective sense.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 300 by Faith, posted 05-29-2019 11:39 AM Faith has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 318 by Phat, posted 05-31-2019 10:02 AM Stile has replied

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


(1)
Message 315 of 438 (853718)
05-31-2019 9:38 AM
Reply to: Message 302 by foreveryoung
05-29-2019 12:06 PM


Re: Still no evidence of ANY benefits available only through God.
faoreveryoung writes:
If a purpose is derived from islam or buddhism it will pale in comparison to a purpose that is derived from a sincere belief in the God of the bible.
How so?
I don't see it.
purposes that are held by people who deny the existence of any being in charge of the universe can only be derived from philosophy.
Personal philosophy, yes.
Which makes them stronger than obtaining a purpose from any outside source - even an all-powerful, universe-creating God.
One could have a philosophy to remove suffering in this world at every opportunity but the notion that some people do not deserve rights or have an intrinsic value because you deem them to be evil, will end up causing the world harm and such a purpose would ultimately lead to regret.
What if such a person did not ultimately lead to regret?
Then is it greater that God's purpose?
What is "God's purpose," anyway?
Personal purpose, for me, is greater than God's purpose because it resonates with me. God's purpose does not.
Or, at least I think God's purpose doesn't resonate with me - you'd have to tell me what "God's purpose" is for me to know.
Unfortunately, God - in his all-powerful, universe-creating ways - isn't capable of offering a purpose to me that resonates stronger than a purpose I generate myself. Therefore God will always be lacking in this way. Behind the curve. Unable to ever catch up.
It's not His fault - to me, purpose is subjective. I don't blame God or really care that God's purpose isn't enough for me. I already have a purpose that is stronger, for me - the ones I generate for myself.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 302 by foreveryoung, posted 05-29-2019 12:06 PM foreveryoung has not replied

  
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