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Author | Topic: Why did God forgive our sins? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Tangle Member Posts: 9509 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
Phat writes: Everyone has beliefs. Do they? Speaking for myself I have hopes rather than beliefs. But we were talking about god and Christianity, so no, not everyone.
You dont know the final destiny of humanity, for example.
But why does that matter? Is it important to know that? It doesn't matter a jot to me that I don't know the final destiny of humanity.
Dont you believe that we will survive or find a way to do so or are you simply relying on facts and evidence....because if you are, there is no answer...only probabilities. But why worry about such stuff? It's just a mental torment. You have absolutely no control over it and you're only here for a while, you personally have so many real things to get control over - forget all this for ever stuff and worrying about the future of all mankind. All we can do is the best for ourselves, family and friends and then if we're lucky something for a wider audience. Fix your own roof first and stop agonising over the impossible.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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ringo Member (Idle past 438 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
I believe mankind will become extinct - but not in my lifetime.
Dont you believe that we will survive or find a way to do so....
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1431 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
If one believes in a God, then why did God send "his son" ... Logic error. Does not follow from premise. Many religions have no such cop-out. If god is an omnipotent, etc etc etc,know it all, then s/he is responsible for creating "sin" in the first place, and the only reason to have a convoluted mechanism to "earn freedom" from this imposed sin is to impose a Stockholm syndrome behavior on the believers. Control. One has only to look at the denial of reality that is necessary to believe ... sound more like devil worship to me. Enjoy Edited by RAZD, : .by our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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jar Member (Idle past 420 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Since it doesn't seem to have any meaning other than what the individual wants it to mean I would say it is of no importance but if YOU decide that it means something that helps YOU then it is supremely important.
It's what you do that counts not what you say.
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Pressie Member Posts: 2103 From: Pretoria, SA Joined: |
I'm of a different opinion. What counts as being advantageous to a society is what is really important. That includes the opinions of the members of the society.
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jar Member (Idle past 420 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Pressie writes: I'm of a different opinion. What counts as being advantageous to a society is what is really important. That includes the opinions of the members of the society. But opinions are not really important, actions are. I society may well think women (or any other demographic) worthless but if the do not treat women as worthless than the opinion had no effect on the society. It's what a society does that is important, not what it opines.
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Phat Member Posts: 18335 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
I suppose one could argue that monotheism that requires a choice is really dualism. I dont understand the distinction between being a Deist and a pantheist, however. Do you have any insights?
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith
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Phat Member Posts: 18335 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
But why worry about such stuff? It's just a mental torment. You have absolutely no control over it and you're only here for a while, you personally have so many real things to get control over - forget all this forever stuff and worrying about the future of all mankind. All we can do is the best for ourselves, family and friends and then if we're lucky something for a wider audience. Fix your own roof first and stop agonizing over the impossible. Lucky? Seriously? There is no such thing. Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith
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Tangle Member Posts: 9509 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8
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Phat writes:
Of all the things you could have picked out of my post, you picked this one, why? Lucky? Seriously? There is no such thing. Of course there's such a thing called luck. It's pure luck you are alive at all.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Phat Member Posts: 18335 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
I'm talking probability. And there is a difference between measurable probability which has real criteria and a fanciful hypothetical probability of which there is no way to measure and thus quantify. The latter is incorrectly called luck or chance and there is no such a thing, in the absence of solid and verifiable numbers behind it.
Let's take the Yellowstone volcano. There is measurable probability connected with forecasting a future eruption.We have a range (600,000 to 700,000 years. ) Contrast that with the probability of some event for which we have no solid data. My argument is that in the absence of data, there is no probability. And without probability, there is no such thing as luck or chance. Edited by Phat, : No reason given.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith
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Tangle Member Posts: 9509 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
Phat writes: I'm talking probability. Yes, but I can't make out why.
And there is a difference between measurable probability which has real criteria and a fanciful hypothetical probability of which there is no way to measure and thus quantify. Sure, but so what?
Let's take the Yellowstone volcano. There is measurable probability connected with forecasting a future eruption. There isn't. There is absolutely no way of knowing what the odds of Yellowstone blowing up at any particular time are.
We have a range (600,000 to 700,000 years. ) We don't. What we have is some knowledge of how many times and when Yellowstone has errupted. That can't tell us anything about the odds of it happening on Friday. I think you you're confusing real probability, like a dice where we know the chances of every event occurring because we can count them and unknowns like Yellowstone when someone baldy claims that because it blew up 1,000,000 years ago then it's due to blow up in the next ten years. We can't know that.
And without probability, there is no such thing as luck or chance. If you're in Yellowstone when it blows up we'd quite rightly say it was bad luck wouldn't we? We had no way of calculating the probability of it errupting on our trip, so the fact that it did was just bad luck wasn't it? But I don't get why you're so hung up on this probability thing at all, is it the gambling problem?Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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ringo Member (Idle past 438 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
The outcome has nothing to do with whether or not we can quantify the probability. Getting a particular outcome is pure luck whether you can predict it or not.
And there is a difference between measurable probability which has real criteria and a fanciful hypothetical probability of which there is no way to measure and thus quantify. The latter is incorrectly called luck or chance and there is no such a thing, in the absence of solid and verifiable numbers behind it.
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Phat Member Posts: 18335 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Getting a particular outcome is pure luck whether you can predict it or not. If by luck or chance you mean random, consider that chance in and of itself has no power in and of itself to cause any sort of an outcome. Thus to say that something happens by chance is really saying nothing. Chance has no power. Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith
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Tangle Member Posts: 9509 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
Phat writes:
It's a bounded randomness. It's random if you get a 6 when rolling a dice once but we know that the chance of you doing so was 1 in 6. But we also know that you can never roll a 7. We also know that the chance of rolling 2 sixes in a row are less than rolling just one, so if you set out to roll two sixes and achieve it, we call that luck. And because we know the bounds of what was possible we can say exactly how lucky you were.
If by luck or chance you mean random chance in and of itself has no power in and of itself to cause any sort of an outcome. I think you're just messing with words here. Chance or probability has predictive power but it doesn't do anything to cause the outcome. A individual outcome of rolling a dice is random (this isn't quite true - if we understood all the forces acting on the die we could theoretically know the outcome, but it's good enough for us.) but knowing that the chance of it coming up 6 in 1 in 6 can't affect the outcome of a single roll.
Thus to say that something happens by chance is really saying nothing. Well that's just wrong. If something is happening by chance, we know that it's not happening in a predictable pattern. That's very, very useful, it seperates noise from communication for example. If you want to find evidence of alien civilisations, look for non-random signals.
Chance has no power. Tell that to the casinos. Knowing what the probabilities are for a roulette wheel ensures that the house has the power to always win in the end. But chance itself is just what we call what we're observing - it's not a thing in itself.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Pressie Member Posts: 2103 From: Pretoria, SA Joined:
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Tangle writes: And tell that to the people playing our national lottery. They increased the numbers you can choose to play from 49 to 52 (unannounced, of course). And the winner is... wait for it... wait for it...the CEO of the company contracted by the Government to run the Lotto...That guy gets millions. As someone said: Gambling was invented by a guy who knew basic maths conning persons who can't do any form of maths.
Tell that to the casinos. Knowing what the probabilities are for a roulette wheel ensures that the house has the power to always win in the end.
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