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Author Topic:   Omniscience, Omnipotence, the Fall & Logical Contradictions.
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 293 of 354 (690121)
02-09-2013 11:29 AM
Reply to: Message 289 by Phat
02-08-2013 4:35 PM


Re: The "omnipotence and omniscience are mutually exclusive" argument is weak!
Phat writes:
If your robot has the power of choice programmed into it and it directly makes that choice, you are only responsible for creating choice...not actual evil.
So if you give a baby a bottle of poison, whatever happens is a result of his choices.... Sounds like you're scrambling to absolve your god of any kind of responsibility. Omnipotent but irresponsible doesn't sound like a good combination to me.
Phat writes:
And even if you could be accused of such, your accusers have no power or ability to judge you since they all are of no higher moral character.
How is accepting responsibility for you own actions not "higher" morally than not accepting responsibility?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 289 by Phat, posted 02-08-2013 4:35 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 296 by Phat, posted 02-09-2013 12:00 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 297 of 354 (690132)
02-09-2013 12:42 PM
Reply to: Message 296 by Phat
02-09-2013 12:00 PM


Re: The "omnipotence and omniscience are mutually exclusive" argument is weak!
Phat writes:
Who is "the baby"? We are all adults here.
Bill Cosby used to say to his kids on TV, "I brought you into this world and I can take you out." As long as the Creator/Father has that attitude, we're all his babies.
Phat writes:
What is "the poison"?
Anything that has consequences. Why should God get the credit for giving us opportunites and then take no responsibility for the consequences?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 296 by Phat, posted 02-09-2013 12:00 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 298 by Phat, posted 02-09-2013 12:47 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 299 of 354 (690134)
02-09-2013 12:59 PM
Reply to: Message 298 by Phat
02-09-2013 12:47 PM


Re: The "omnipotence and omniscience are mutually exclusive" argument is weak!
Phat writes:
Choice has consequences. Is freedom of choice "poison"?
When you create choices, you are at least partially responsible for the consequences of those choices, no matter who else makes the actual choice. If you give a baby a bottle of poison, he may choose to drink it or he may choose to give it to his friend or he may choose to play with the blocks instead. But a responsible person wouldn't give him that choice. By giving him that "free will", you automatically become responsible.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 298 by Phat, posted 02-09-2013 12:47 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 301 by Phat, posted 02-09-2013 1:06 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 302 of 354 (690138)
02-09-2013 1:17 PM
Reply to: Message 301 by Phat
02-09-2013 1:06 PM


Re: The "omnipotence and omniscience are mutually exclusive" argument is weak!
Phat writes:
Should Lucifer have told God that regardless of what he (Lucifer) chose to do or become, God was responsible for creating him and giving him free choice to question authority?
If God was omniscient, He should have known that without being told.
Phat writes:
Should God have not allowed evil to exist?
If he was omnipotent, why not? Why is evil "necessary"?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 301 by Phat, posted 02-09-2013 1:06 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 303 by Phat, posted 02-09-2013 1:22 PM ringo has replied
 Message 323 by Phat, posted 10-22-2017 12:10 AM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 318 of 354 (690266)
02-11-2013 11:52 AM
Reply to: Message 303 by Phat
02-09-2013 1:22 PM


Re: The "omnipotence and omniscience are mutually exclusive" argument is weak!
Phat writes:
I believe that evil is simple disobedience of truth.... If God was an absolute, however, Lucifer was arguing against that absolute. He was essentially arguing that truth is relative.
If there is absolute truth, how can there be free will? A choice between TRUE and FALSE is not a real choice. Free will requires a choice like, If I do this, then that happens OR if I do something else, then something different happens. That's relative truth.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 303 by Phat, posted 02-09-2013 1:22 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 319 by Phat, posted 02-11-2013 12:49 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 322 of 354 (690463)
02-13-2013 11:27 AM
Reply to: Message 319 by Phat
02-11-2013 12:49 PM


Re: The "omnipotence and omniscience are mutually exclusive" argument is weak!
Phat writes:
This is why I believe that even though you are not religious and even say that you lean towards agnosticism/atheism, you have the Spirit within you. most all of your answers to many religious arguments and discussions show that you have accepted Jesus, or at least that were you to meet Him you would acknowledge Him as Lord.
There's a big difference between accepting the principles taught by somebody and acknowledging that somebody as "Lord".
Phat writes:
You may argue, just for arguments sake, that God foreknew all of this and in that respect you never had a choice not to believe. (or act.) what say ye?
I think it's pretty clear that the "choice" to be altruistic is biological nad social, not religious. Almost every religion advocates the same altruism.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 319 by Phat, posted 02-11-2013 12:49 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 324 by Phat, posted 10-22-2017 12:16 AM ringo has replied
 Message 331 by Phat, posted 10-22-2017 9:54 AM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 334 of 354 (822305)
10-22-2017 2:44 PM
Reply to: Message 324 by Phat
10-22-2017 12:16 AM


Re: The "omnipotence and omniscience are mutually exclusive" argument is weak!
Phat writes:
Likely the first being in the universe to refuse to call Jesus Lord was satan. Why follow that model?
Because Jesus Himself said that calling Him "Lord" doesn't cut it.
quote:
Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 324 by Phat, posted 10-22-2017 12:16 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 335 of 354 (822307)
10-22-2017 2:49 PM
Reply to: Message 331 by Phat
10-22-2017 9:54 AM


Re: The "omnipotence and omniscience are mutually exclusive" argument is weak!
Phat writes:
OK, getting back to one of our side debates about beliefs versus actions.
Our debate is about empty beliefs versus actions. I believe in actions as strongly as you believe in some guy rising from the dead. The difference is that your belief has no meaning.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 331 by Phat, posted 10-22-2017 9:54 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 336 of 354 (822310)
10-22-2017 3:21 PM
Reply to: Message 323 by Phat
10-22-2017 12:10 AM


Re: Bringing Henry Ford Into This
Phat writes:
Thus my question. Is Red Necessary? Is Green Necessary? Is White Necessary?
You're not going back far enough: Is a car necessary at all? What does "necessary" mean?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 323 by Phat, posted 10-22-2017 12:10 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 337 by Phat, posted 10-22-2017 3:46 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 338 of 354 (822312)
10-22-2017 3:53 PM
Reply to: Message 337 by Phat
10-22-2017 3:46 PM


Re: Bringing Henry Ford Into This
Phat writes:
Do we usually curse the one who invented alcohol, for example?
God invented alcohol. What necessity was its mother?
Evil "must have been" a necessary invention because you need it to make your theology work.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 337 by Phat, posted 10-22-2017 3:46 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 339 by Phat, posted 10-23-2017 8:54 AM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 341 of 354 (822340)
10-23-2017 11:39 AM
Reply to: Message 339 by Phat
10-23-2017 8:54 AM


Re: The Mother Of All Bums
Phat writes:
If I simply give spare change to the creative homeless guy spinning his sign on the corner, and if i am doing it to alleviate my conscience, perhaps I am not doing enough.
What does the homeless guy care about your motivation? His life or death don't depend on your motivation. If feeding him is not "enough", what is?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 339 by Phat, posted 10-23-2017 8:54 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 342 by Phat, posted 11-05-2017 3:27 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 343 of 354 (823126)
11-06-2017 11:34 AM
Reply to: Message 342 by Phat
11-05-2017 3:27 PM


Re: Does God care about our motives?
Phat writes:
I can't feed all of them.
Jesus said you should sell what you have and give to the poor. He didn't say you should go into debt trying to feed all of them. He didn't say you should neglect your own children to feed the poor. It's your decision how much you do to help the poor. The only option that isn't on the table is zero.
Phat writes:
Perhaps if I did unto others the way that I EXPECT God to DO unto ME, I would find the answer.
Forget God. Just do what the bumper sticker says, "Do unto others as you would expect THEM to do unto you."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 342 by Phat, posted 11-05-2017 3:27 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 344 by Phat, posted 11-06-2017 3:57 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 345 of 354 (823274)
11-08-2017 2:09 PM
Reply to: Message 344 by Phat
11-06-2017 3:57 PM


Re: Does God care about our motives?
Phat writes:
But I never would expect handouts from any strangers.
What do you think the Golden Rule means?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 344 by Phat, posted 11-06-2017 3:57 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 346 by jar, posted 11-08-2017 2:41 PM ringo has seen this message but not replied
 Message 347 by Phat, posted 11-08-2017 3:49 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 348 of 354 (823285)
11-08-2017 3:58 PM
Reply to: Message 347 by Phat
11-08-2017 3:49 PM


Re: Does God care about our motives?
Phat writes:
How can I trust handing money out to people whom I never know their motives, intentions, or character?
What do you need to "trust" when you're helping the poor? You're not getting anything (material) in return so you can't be ripped off. What's it to you what their motives are?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 347 by Phat, posted 11-08-2017 3:49 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 349 by Phat, posted 11-08-2017 4:14 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 351 of 354 (823326)
11-09-2017 10:46 AM
Reply to: Message 349 by Phat
11-08-2017 4:14 PM


Re: Does God care about our motives?
Phat writes:
yeah but im losing money.
quote:
Ecclesiastes 11:1 Cast thy bread upon the waters: for thou shalt find it after many days.
quote:
Luke 6:38 Give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall men give into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again.
quote:
2 Corinthians 9:6 But this I say, He which soweth sparingly shall reap also sparingly; and he which soweth bountifully shall reap also bountifully.
I could go on and on.
Why do you insist on ignoring the message?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 349 by Phat, posted 11-08-2017 4:14 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 353 by Phat, posted 11-19-2017 9:25 AM ringo has replied

  
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