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Author Topic:   What is the Meaning of John 3:16?
jar
Member
Posts: 31766
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 137 of 156 (822298)
10-22-2017 11:06 AM
Reply to: Message 136 by Thugpreacha
10-22-2017 8:49 AM


Re: Topic Resurrection...lets start slow.
Phat writes:

But what does this have to do with the meaning of John 3? Are you suggesting that the same accusation was waged by the early believers?

It has to do with not just John 3 but the total history of Christianity as well as every other religion out there.

The issue is "Who owns the current dogma?"

Owning the current dogma means power and control and wealth and property and fame.

The Creeds were an early attempt to use dogma to determine who was in and who was out.

The Trinity was an early attempt to use dogma to determine who was in and who was out.

The list goes on and on.

The Church of Peter or the Church of Paul?

The Church or Rome or Constantinople?

Greek or Russian Orthodox?

Roman Catholic or Protestant.

Calvin, Knox, Luther, Wesley, Fox, Allen, McPherson, Miller and Campbell; Henry and Edward and James.

They each defined who was and who was not a Christian.

So question back at you?

Why do we not teach the facts of what actually happened to young Christians? Why are we not teaching the middle school age kids the honest history of religion and only teaching OUR current dogma?

Which is education and which is indoctrination?


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 136 by Thugpreacha, posted 10-22-2017 8:49 AM Thugpreacha has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 138 by Thugpreacha, posted 10-23-2017 8:16 AM jar has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 31766
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 139 of 156 (822332)
10-23-2017 9:14 AM
Reply to: Message 138 by Thugpreacha
10-23-2017 8:16 AM


Re: Topic Resurrection...lets start slow.
Phat writes:

I looked up the definition of dogma because I had always imagined the term as a slight towards beliefs. I was actually surprised to learn that the term itself means the beliefs themselves incorporated into a culture by the club of choice.

Imagine that when you were becoming a teen, say 13-15 years old, you had been taught the meaning of dogma.

Then you would understand that there was YOUR Clubs Dogma but that other clubs had their own set of rules and beliefs.

Phat writes:

Hopefully, this thread will be educational. So tell me more about these supposed redactors.

I can't since all we have is the evidence that there was either additions or exclusion and no information about who or when. Sometimes, as in the case of Long Mark we can say it was before XYZ date since the long version is mentioned by ABC.

Phat writes:

Why has nearly every apologist and church pastor been willfully ignorant of the bare bones truth(if there is such an animal) about the scriptures they hold dear?

Maybe for the same reason most apologist and pastors don't encourage their members to actually read the Bible as a whole but instead take pieces parts like John 3:16 out of context and make it a Burma Shave Sign form of Theology.

They have a vested interest is discouraging Critical Thinking.

But I don't think they are ignorant of the facts, just willfully and utterly dishonest.

Let me try to illustrate.

You get upset when I tell you to Throw Jesus away.

Suppose I told you to Throw Ganesha away?

Suppose I told you to Throw Allah away?

The difference is only dogma. The each statement says the same thing but the reaction to each statement will depend on the hearers dogma. A Muslim will likely have no issue with the first two, a Hindu will likely have no issue with the first or last and you likely have no issue with the last two.

In Washington we have the National Cathedral. It is actually an Episcopal Cathedral. Yet there have been Buddhist services there and Muslim services there and Hindu services there and secular services there and Darth Vader there as well.

It all depends on whose ox gets gored. As long as it is not YOUR ox all is fine; except for the ox.

What is needed is to learn that they are all someones ox, someones path. Maybe not YOUR path but the path that others choose.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 138 by Thugpreacha, posted 10-23-2017 8:16 AM Thugpreacha has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 140 by Thugpreacha, posted 10-23-2017 9:39 AM jar has responded
 Message 141 by Thugpreacha, posted 10-23-2017 9:44 AM jar has not yet responded
 Message 145 by Thugpreacha, posted 10-24-2017 10:45 AM jar has acknowledged this reply

  
jar
Member
Posts: 31766
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 142 of 156 (822338)
10-23-2017 10:21 AM
Reply to: Message 140 by Thugpreacha
10-23-2017 9:39 AM


Re: Born Again Dogma
Phat writes:

Speaking of Dogma and of John 3, what is your take on Jesus conversation with Nicodemus?

As used in much of modern Christian Dogma it is simply another example of taking pieces parts out on context and another great example of redaction.

The full passage is ...

quote:
1: There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:
2: The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.
3: Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4: Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
5: Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6: That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7: Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
8: The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
9: Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?
10: Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?
11: Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.
12: If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?

... but usually just one line is pulled out of context and turned into a Proof Text.

But wait, there is more:

just as we saw after John 3:16, the POV changes from Jesus speaking to an offstage narrator, the Chorus in a Greek Tragedy and inserting additional material.

quote:
13: And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
14: And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

Note "That whosoever believeth in him..." not "That whosoever believeth in me ..." These are editorial comments inserted by some redactor or editor and not quotations of what Jesus is supposed to have said.

The authors and redactors and editors of John are reactionaries, trying to change what they see as a revolution moving away from their perceived position.

And when seen in full context the whole idea of being "Born Again" loses much of the accept significance even within John. It is only when pulled out of context that it can be used as it so often used.

Phat writes:

Of course, I was supposedly born again, and the reason that the dogma has value to me is that I actually recall being changed nearly instantaneously.

Yet just as with Saul, you have not been able to point or explain any significant changes in personality or behavior or habits or traits.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 140 by Thugpreacha, posted 10-23-2017 9:39 AM Thugpreacha has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 147 by Thugpreacha, posted 10-25-2017 10:15 AM jar has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 31766
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 149 of 156 (822447)
10-25-2017 10:37 AM
Reply to: Message 147 by Thugpreacha
10-25-2017 10:15 AM


Re: Born Again Dogma
Phat writes:

jar writes:

The authors and redactors and editors of John are reactionaries, trying to change what they see as a revolution moving away from their perceived position.

Isn't that how it has always been in religion, though?

Yes.

And that is the lesson we need to learn. Religion needs to evolve. Jesus was a Jew. Paul was still a Jew but of the Jewish sect called Christians.

The Holy Spirit was an after thought added to the Nicene Creed.

Christmas and Easter and Pentecost are just evolved Jewish holidays which in turn were simply evolved harvest festivals.

There is no such thing as "The Right Religion"; only variations evolved from earlier examples.

Phat writes:

Perhaps the questions that we need to ask ourselves is what our beliefs mean to ourselves, our neighbors, our country, and our world.

Your beliefs are really of no importance or interest to anyone other than yourself. The questions that we need to ask ourselves is what our behavior means to ourselves, our neighbors, our country, and our world.

Throw God away.

Throw beliefs away.

Reality is.

Behaviors are.

When you drop down to eye level with a child they really don't care why you did it.

When you hold the door open for someone herding a passel of kids they really don't care why you did it.

When you put the shopping carts that were left in parking spaces back in the right place no one cares what beliefs led to that behavior.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 147 by Thugpreacha, posted 10-25-2017 10:15 AM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply

  
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