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Author Topic:   What is the Meaning of John 3:16?
Phat
Member
Posts: 16063
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 118 of 156 (653124)
02-18-2012 11:14 AM
Reply to: Message 23 by jar
03-15-2005 8:22 AM


Resurrected Thread on John 3
Theodoric writes:

Phat has become the king of the zombie threads

Hey it was crazydiamond7 that brought this muck up from the deep!

Jon writes:

Since this thread is so old, how many of the beliefs that you expressed seven years ago do you still hold?

I believe in GOD, and am only now comprehending the scope of such a belief. For that reason, I "know" God less than I did 7 years ago, though ironically my faith may be stronger.

I resist thinking about things like redactors and limiting scripture to human wisdom...though quite honestly I cant support any further argument. If we dont hold scripture to be inerrant, belief becomes as philosophy. This does not bother me only because I believe that GOD is GOD regardless of the conclusions that humans arrive at.

jar writes:

Here all we're trying to do is figure out what John 3 (and some other day we'll try get to the possible relevance of John itself). We're starting with John 3:16 since I believe it is so totally and consistently misunderstood, misused and misapplied.

purpledawn writes:

The Book of John is the only NT author that uses the term only begotten son. IMO, our anti-Jewish author was trying to make Jesus different than the past kings who were called "son of God."

The author of John promoted the deity of Jesus, which went against what the Jews were allowed to believe.

IMO, making belief in Jesus as a deity an additional requirement was a way to keep most Jews out of the club.

In order to kmeep this thread from being labled a zombie one, lets examine John 3 in context.

jar writes:

ohn 3 is pretty short and we'll be returning again and again to it so here it is in its entirety.

1: There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:
2: The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.
3: Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4: Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
5: Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6: That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7: Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
8: The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
9: Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?
10: Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?
11: Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.
12: If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?
13: And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
14: And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16: For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17: For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18: He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19: And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20: For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
21: But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.
22: After these things came Jesus and his disciples into the land of Judaea; and there he tarried with them, and baptized.
23: And John also was baptizing in Aenon near to Salim, because there was much water there: and they came, and were baptized.
24: For John was not yet cast into prison.
25: Then there arose a question between some of John's disciples and the Jews about purifying.
26: And they came unto John, and said unto him, Rabbi, he that was with thee beyond Jordan, to whom thou barest witness, behold, the same baptizeth, and all men come to him.
27: John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven.
28: Ye yourselves bear me witness, that I said, I am not the Christ, but that I am sent before him.
29: He that hath the bride is the bridegroom: but the friend of the bridegroom, which standeth and heareth him, rejoiceth greatly because of the bridegroom's voice: this my joy therefore is fulfilled.
30: He must increase, but I must decrease.
31: He that cometh from above is above all: he that is of the earth is earthly, and speaketh of the earth: he that cometh from heaven is above all.
32: And what he hath seen and heard, that he testifieth; and no man receiveth his testimony.
33: He that hath received his testimony hath set to his seal that God is true.
34: For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him.
35: The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.
36: He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

I would like to ask all of you to look closely at John 3:15-18in relation to what comes before.

Are there any difference in construction between those four lines and what leads up to them?

It seems to me that John 3:1-14 is a pretty straight forward recitation of Jesus teachings. He's speaking to Nicodemus, one of the Pharisees. Nic had some questions and as Jesus often did, he answers Nic's questions with a series of examples. In the conversation Jeus is clearly talking about man's relationship with GOD.

The passage ends logically at the end of line 14.

Then the whole construction changes, the speaker changes, and we move from a discussion between Jesus and Nicodemus to an outside commentator.

Redactor or no redactor, my question is whether this writing was inspired, by whom was it inspired, and were "both" authors inspired by the same Spirit?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by jar, posted 03-15-2005 8:22 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 119 by jar, posted 02-18-2012 11:25 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 16063
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 120 of 156 (653129)
02-18-2012 11:36 AM
Reply to: Message 119 by jar
02-18-2012 11:25 AM


Re: Resurrected Thread on John 3
jar writes:

There is nothing that in anyway can point to any source of inspiration.

Why would the source of the "inspiration" matter? What does the writing say?

Jesus says to Nick, "Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." So we have a source of birth. A spiritual birth. Note that Jesus doesnt just say spirit as in "we've got spirit yes we do, we've got spirit how bout you?"

He does also mention that, like the wind, we can't really determine where the Spirit came from...so maybe you have a point.

Mark Twain was inspired through learning...he didn't just pray like a monk in order to receive inspiration...he went out and learned it through social observation and communication. Does this mean that in order to get inspiration I need to work at it?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 119 by jar, posted 02-18-2012 11:25 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 121 by jar, posted 02-18-2012 11:55 AM Phat has not replied
 Message 122 by Jon, posted 02-18-2012 2:46 PM Phat has replied
 Message 133 by goldenlightArchangel, posted 02-28-2013 4:46 PM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 16063
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 126 of 156 (690808)
02-16-2013 9:22 AM
Reply to: Message 122 by Jon
02-18-2012 2:46 PM


Re: Resurrected Thread on John 3
Jon writes:

What does the text say?

*looks*.... it says

quote:
But those who do what is true come to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that their deeds have been done in God.'

Perhaps good works allow us to be drawn towards the light.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 122 by Jon, posted 02-18-2012 2:46 PM Jon has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 16063
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 134 of 156 (822274)
10-22-2017 1:13 AM
Reply to: Message 54 by jar
03-16-2005 2:50 PM


Topic Resurrection...lets start slow.
I have tried before to get this topic back on track and will try yet again...one more time. You were starting to explain a lot of things about John 3 and I will summerize it here:
jar writes:

Here all we're trying to do is figure out what John 3 (and some other day we'll try get to the possible relevance of John itself). We're starting with John 3:16 since I believe it is so totally and consistently misunderstood, misused and misapplied. I gave one hint in Message 7 that may help explain what I believe is one of the biggest problems.(...)First, John 3:16 always gets quoted out of context. I hope to work towards looking at the line in context but first it might be worthwhile to try to decide exactly what the line itself says.
John sent Bill to buy beer for everyone that liked him.

John sent Bill to buy beer for everyone that liked John.

John sent Bill to buy beer for everyone that liked Bill.

...remember this is only the first step, bringing up the question. I don't believe it can be resolved until we move on to look at John 3:16 within context. And I also believe that must be done in an orderly, step my step method or we will end up running in circles.

For those reasons, I'm not looking to resolve the question right now, only to establish that there are at least two ways the single line can be interpreted when seen isolated, out of context. Unless we can get that established I see little hope of progress.

John 3 is pretty short and we'll be returning again and again to it so here it is in its entirety.

1: There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:
2: The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.
3: Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4: Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
5: Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6: That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7: Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
8: The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
9: Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?
10: Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?
11: Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.
12: If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?
13: And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
14: And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16: For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17: For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18: He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19: And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20: For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
21: But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.
22: After these things came Jesus and his disciples into the land of Judaea; and there he tarried with them, and baptized.
23: And John also was baptizing in Aenon near to Salim, because there was much water there: and they came, and were baptized.
24: For John was not yet cast into prison.
25: Then there arose a question between some of John's disciples and the Jews about purifying.
26: And they came unto John, and said unto him, Rabbi, he that was with thee beyond Jordan, to whom thou barest witness, behold, the same baptizeth, and all men come to him.
27: John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven.
28: Ye yourselves bear me witness, that I said, I am not the Christ, but that I am sent before him.
29: He that hath the bride is the bridegroom: but the friend of the bridegroom, which standeth and heareth him, rejoiceth greatly because of the bridegroom's voice: this my joy therefore is fulfilled.
30: He must increase, but I must decrease.
31: He that cometh from above is above all: he that is of the earth is earthly, and speaketh of the earth: he that cometh from heaven is above all.
32: And what he hath seen and heard, that he testifieth; and no man receiveth his testimony.
33: He that hath received his testimony hath set to his seal that God is true.
34: For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him.
35: The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.
36: He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

I would like to ask all of you to look closely at John 3:15-18in relation to what comes before.

Are there any difference in construction between those four lines and what leads up to them?

It seems to me that John 3:1-14 is a pretty straightforward recitation of Jesus teachings. He's speaking to Nicodemus, one of the Pharisees. Nic had some questions and as Jesus often did, he answers Nic's questions with a series of examples. In the conversation, Jesus is clearly talking about man's relationship with GOD.

The passage ends logically at the end of line 14.

Then the whole construction changes, the speaker changes, and we move from a discussion between Jesus and Nicodemus to an outside commentator.

OK, I followed the discussion up to this point. Back then, I was offended that you were questioning the gospel of John, but I now see that it was a logical conversation and wish to continue where we left off.
jar writes:

So, if John 3:15 is a continuation of line 14 and Jesus is speaking in the first person, does the word "him" in John 3:15 refer to Jesus or someone else? If it is still in first person, why wouldn't Jesus say "... believe in me ..." instead of "... believe in him ...?

If we are suddenly switching modes, then is John 3:15 actually a continuation, or is it, as I believe I can show, a later inserted redaction?(...) It could well be that verse 12 is the last example of Jesus speaking. But it seems to me that somewhere in there we move from Jesus speaking to the redactor.

Regardless of exactly where it occurs, it seems pretty clear that John 3:16 is NOT Jesus speaking but editorial comment.

Do you see any other way to interpret it?

And you then went on to say the following:

jar writes:

I base this on several things. One is the major change in narative style. Second, there is a major change in content and emphasis. Third, the section between John 3:13 and John 3:16 simply does not fit within the context of what came before. Fourth, as we proceed through the next few lines we find the redactor backpedaling to try to make stuff fit.

All of John is Reactionary as opposed to Revolutionary. Of all the Gospels, it is the only one that pushes for an exclusionary Christianity. And this verse is, IMHO, where Reaction begins. Here is where Christianity is changed from being inclusionary to exclusionary, even though, as we will see, they had to work hard to make it fit.(...)Just to try to make my position clear, I absolutely see John (the whole Gospel) as a Reactionary book that was intended to "Correct" and "Redirect" was seen as major shortcomings in the other three Gospels.

John itself is IMHO a complete redaction of Christianity as a whole. I personally have a very low opinion of John as inspired Christian Scripture.

I have a question or two. What does it mean when you say that John is/was Reactionary as opposed to Revolutionary? Who were the redactors and what "side" were they on? Finally, does this have any similar motive that Saul of Tarsus had when he decided to switch sides? I'm still confused as to why there was an alleged battle over the meaning of the message of Jesus
and why there were at least two competing religions involved?(Judaism and Pauls new marketing as well as the redactors motives)


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by jar, posted 03-16-2005 2:50 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 135 by jar, posted 10-22-2017 7:39 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 16063
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 136 of 156 (822287)
10-22-2017 8:49 AM
Reply to: Message 135 by jar
10-22-2017 7:39 AM


Re: Topic Resurrection...lets start slow.
jar writes:

Have you ever noticed posters here claiming that someone is "Not a real Christian"?

Yes of course...most recently we all went at it over the idea of "cultural Christianity" which I even elaborated on. There have been a few times where I questioned your own motives regarding some of what you said...even earlier on (a few years ago) in this very thread. But what does this have to do with the meaning of John 3? Are you suggesting that the same accusation was waged by the early believers? Or am I jumping ahead with my assumptions?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 135 by jar, posted 10-22-2017 7:39 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 137 by jar, posted 10-22-2017 11:06 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 16063
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 138 of 156 (822327)
10-23-2017 8:16 AM
Reply to: Message 137 by jar
10-22-2017 11:06 AM


Re: Topic Resurrection...lets start slow.
I looked up the definition of dogma because I had always imagined the term as a slight towards beliefs. I was actually surprised to learn that the term itself means the beliefs themselves incorporated into a culture by the club of choice.

jar writes:

So question back at you?
Why do we not teach the facts of what actually happened to young Christians? Why are we not teaching the middle school age kids the honest history of religion and only teaching OUR current dogma?

You have mentioned the value of a sacred studies class in school, and I see no problem with it apart from the fear from parents that their kids are merely being taught the history of culture and religion without being fed the dogma which the parents likely want their offspring to have, grooming them for inclusion into the primary power and control that Christianity might allow them. Of course, the family would label it as values rather than power. John 3:16 is the primary scripture that much of US Christianity uses as its starting point. God so loved us that He gave us His Son! Many of us hang on to this seeming promise from the primary power and source of peace and prosperity which we have been raised to believe in. (I never officially believed until I was saved at a church in 2003, but Christianity was an inescapable part of my growing up culture.

My parents seemingly equated it with prosperity and status...being firmly part of the first wave of prosperity from the aberration after World War II. You know my story. I pine for those days of prosperity and hesitate to approach my belief logically, rationally, and reasonably. For that reason, my belief in Jesus as comforter and rescuer remains deeply embedded in my own set of beliefs.

jar writes:

Which is education and which is indoctrination?

Hopefully, this thread will be educational. So tell me more about these supposed redactors. Why has nearly every apologist and church pastor been willfully ignorant of the bare bones truth(if there is such an animal) about the scriptures they hold dear?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 137 by jar, posted 10-22-2017 11:06 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 139 by jar, posted 10-23-2017 9:14 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 16063
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 140 of 156 (822334)
10-23-2017 9:39 AM
Reply to: Message 139 by jar
10-23-2017 9:14 AM


Born Again Dogma
Speaking of Dogma and of John 3, what is your take on Jesus conversation with Nicodemus?

NIV writes:

Jesus replied, "Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again." "How can someone be born when they are old?" Nicodemus asked. "Surely they cannot enter a second time into their mother's womb to be born!" Jesus answered, "Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit."

I noted the following commentary in Wiki:

Wiki writes:

A 19th-century source notes that the phrase was not mentioned by the other Evangelists, nor by the Apostles except Peter. "It was not regarded by any of the Evangelists but John of sufficient importance to record." It adds that without John, "we should hardly have known that it was necessary for one to be born again." This suggests that "the text and context was meant to apply to Nicodemus particularly, and not to the world.

Of course, I was supposedly born again, and the reason that the dogma has value to me is that I actually recall being changed nearly instantaneously. Perhaps there is another explanation for what actually happened to me.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 139 by jar, posted 10-23-2017 9:14 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 142 by jar, posted 10-23-2017 10:21 AM Phat has replied
 Message 143 by ringo, posted 10-23-2017 12:06 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 16063
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 141 of 156 (822336)
10-23-2017 9:44 AM
Reply to: Message 139 by jar
10-23-2017 9:14 AM


Re: Topic Resurrection...lets start slow.
jar writes:

You get upset when I tell you to Throw Jesus away.

Suppose I told you to Throw Ganesha away?

Suppose I told you to Throw Allah away?

The difference is only dogma. The each statement says the same thing but the reaction to each statement will depend on the hearers dogma.

But this is why GDR gets upset with you. He likely would mention that were you a real Christian you would be true to your own dogma and never suggest throwing Jesus away. Just because we can study many paths does not preclude us from choosing one, after all. What am I missing?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 139 by jar, posted 10-23-2017 9:14 AM jar has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 16063
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 144 of 156 (822400)
10-24-2017 10:36 AM
Reply to: Message 143 by ringo
10-23-2017 12:06 PM


Re: Born Again Dogma
I was taught that though it is a one-time decision, it is a daily recommitment.

But jar is right that my long-term behavior never really changed...though it surely changed a lot in the short term. Being born again is overrated, in my opinion. The initial affirmation and declaration are commendable, but you guys are correct in that beliefs without actions are largely ceremonial and empty.

Be patient with me. I am still trying to grasp reality as it now exists vs events that have happened in the past. I am also trying to separate Christian dogma and teaching from the reality of the daily meaning.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 143 by ringo, posted 10-23-2017 12:06 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 146 by ringo, posted 10-24-2017 11:43 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 16063
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 145 of 156 (822402)
10-24-2017 10:45 AM
Reply to: Message 139 by jar
10-23-2017 9:14 AM


The Mindset Of Christian Leaders
jar,referring to CCoI leadership writes:

But I don't think they are ignorant of the facts, just willfully and utterly dishonest.

I cant imagine anyone being willfully dishonest, but maybe it is an actual brain disorder. I know that at times I will ignore certain evidence and stubbornly cling to what I need to be true, so I can see where you are coming from. The cognitive dissonance is at times uncomfortable.

I rationalize my actions by telling myself that all of the data is not yet in and that it is unhealthy to only listen to one point of view, but perhaps what you call willful dishonesty is seen by some more like denial. Is denying something actually the same as being willfully dishonest?

And let's get back to the reactionaries. These redactors.

They have a vested interest is discouraging Critical Thinking.
To be honest, sometimes I turn off my critical thinking because I feel that I need answers rather than endless questions or else I will never stand for anything.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 139 by jar, posted 10-23-2017 9:14 AM jar has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 16063
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 147 of 156 (822443)
10-25-2017 10:15 AM
Reply to: Message 142 by jar
10-23-2017 10:21 AM


Re: Born Again Dogma
jar writes:

The authors and redactors and editors of John are reactionaries, trying to change what they see as a revolution moving away from their perceived position.

Isn't that how it has always been in religion, though? Perhaps the questions that we need to ask ourselves is what our beliefs mean to ourselves, our neighbors, our country, and our world.

I'm in this whole soul-searching mode lately. I saw a National Geographic show called American Blackout, about an EMP attack which could ultimately kill 90% of Americans, and I thought of how fear and faith mysteriously intertwine and co-exist in modern culture divorced from actual reality.

The larger question in relation to this topic is how relevant the stories in the Bible are for us today in the world we live in today.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 142 by jar, posted 10-23-2017 10:21 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 149 by jar, posted 10-25-2017 10:37 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 16063
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 148 of 156 (822445)
10-25-2017 10:27 AM
Reply to: Message 146 by ringo
10-24-2017 11:43 AM


Comfort The Afflicted
ringo writes:

Doing the right thing shouldn't be a "decision" or a "commitment". It should be a way of life.

Agreed, though you and I differ on what the right thing should be. On my way to work I pass several homeless guys with signs, one whom spins and twirls his sign and entertains the traffic...but, to be honest, I feel no compassion to give these guys any money. I'm more inclined to help out a customer who is a buck or so short on their order so that they won't have to put any food back.

I have no problem with helping others, however. Perhaps the homeless guys are different in your town...they certainly don't strike any chord of sympathy with me. Some of them we know even steal from our store.

An honest customer who pays yet who is short on change elicits more attention from me.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 146 by ringo, posted 10-24-2017 11:43 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 150 by ringo, posted 10-25-2017 3:19 PM Phat has not replied
 Message 151 by NoNukes, posted 10-26-2017 12:27 PM Phat has replied
 Message 153 by Tangle, posted 10-26-2017 12:58 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 16063
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 152 of 156 (822496)
10-26-2017 12:30 PM
Reply to: Message 151 by NoNukes
10-26-2017 12:27 PM


Re: Comfort The Afflicted
You also don't know the situation.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 151 by NoNukes, posted 10-26-2017 12:27 PM NoNukes has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 16063
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 154 of 156 (822507)
10-26-2017 5:53 PM
Reply to: Message 153 by Tangle
10-26-2017 12:58 PM


If Jesus has an issue, I'll Hear About It
Tangle writes:

Homeless people are pretty much the same across the developed world.
I'm not sure what you expect of them; are you?

Like I said, I would rather help the struggling single Mom who cant afford all of her groceries rather than the alcoholic on the corner. Call me evil, I dunno. I can't help everybody

NoNukes writes:

This is the first sign of a dispensationalist. Few other Christians believe that helping their fellow man is optional.

I have no idea what being a "dispensationalist" has to do with this. First of all, I don't claim such a title. Second of all, I am all for helping where the help does the most good and is appreciated. and yes, I actually do give money nearly every few days or so..its just that I choose not to give it to the guys on the street but to the poor customers whom I have gotten to know. As I said, at our store there are often customers who are short on funds...and rather than have them put food back, I usually cover the cost along with the next customer in line.

All that a dispensationalist is, in my understanding, is one who believes that the OT was mainly written TO Israel while the NT (starting with Paul) was written to everyone. And yes I know Jesus commanded all of us to help our fellow man. My ongoing point is that you cant just hand money to everyone who has a sign. I prefer helping people who never ask for it. There are numerous shelters and food banks to help the others...handing them cash is not as productive as helping a family pay for some of their groceries. Now...if the homeless guy is in the store and is not trying to walk out with stuff, I would help him pay for his sandwich just as I would any other customer. I don't believe in simply throwing money at social issues with no thought as to how it might be best spent. If Jesus has an issue with that, I certainly will hear from Him at some point.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 153 by Tangle, posted 10-26-2017 12:58 PM Tangle has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 155 by ringo, posted 10-27-2017 12:14 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 156 by NoNukes, posted 10-28-2017 11:09 AM Phat has not replied

  
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