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Author Topic:   The Tension of Faith
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 541 of 1540 (823383)
11-09-2017 3:45 PM
Reply to: Message 539 by Modulous
11-09-2017 3:31 PM


Re: how faith is based on faith, not evidence
Then I have to opt out of the discussion since I couldn't get through your post. Except to say that such a weird assertion which gives no picture of a split moon to ascertain what on earth it claims to mean, can't compare to the narratives of Jesus multiplying the loaves and fishes with particular amounts left over after feeding the thousands who came to hear Him. If you actually think such a nonsensical vague statement can compare with the miracles of Jesus or the parting of the Red Sea or any of it there is really nothing to discuss, it's a huge waste of time.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 539 by Modulous, posted 11-09-2017 3:31 PM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 542 by Modulous, posted 11-09-2017 4:53 PM Faith has replied

  
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 542 of 1540 (823395)
11-09-2017 4:53 PM
Reply to: Message 541 by Faith
11-09-2017 3:45 PM


Re: how faith is based on faith, not evidence
Except to say that such a weird assertion which gives no picture of a split moon to ascertain what on earth it claims to mean
It's the moon. Only it has been split. Not sure what's complicated. Also the Flood, which I believe you are familiar with the details of.
It means God can split the moon and flood the earth. He is powerful. It's not tricky. I mean, you could just read the Chapter and see for yourself, what the point is, I suppose, if you don't take my word for it.
can't compare to the narratives of Jesus
They are miracles, which was the evidence you put forward. Narratives are another thing entirely. You could read Chapter 26. there is a narrative of a guy called Moses and some Pharaoh, some miracles regarding snakes.
or the parting of the Red Sea
quote:
Then We inspired to Moses, "Strike with your staff the sea," and it parted, and each portion was like a great towering mountain...And We saved Moses and those with him, all together. Then We drowned the others. Indeed in that is a sign, but most of them were not to be believers.
That's in there too. Is this evidence for Islam then? Are miracles described in texts evidence or not? Can you explain why you trust the Biblical authors. Surely, writing historical narratives cannot be sufficient to earn your trust. Describing miracles cannot be sufficient to justify your faith. So why do you have faith in the truth of the Gospel testimony?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 541 by Faith, posted 11-09-2017 3:45 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 544 by Faith, posted 11-09-2017 11:15 PM Modulous has replied

  
Paboss
Member (Idle past 1765 days)
Posts: 55
Joined: 10-01-2017


Message 543 of 1540 (823404)
11-09-2017 9:26 PM
Reply to: Message 517 by Faith
11-08-2017 12:55 PM


Re: How Faith is based on evidence and yet a gift
Faith writes:
Of course multiple millions, even billions, of believers in "gods" isn't sufficient for you. If you witnessed an apparition of a "god" would you believe that? Try telling someone else about your experience and they will say there is no evidence of gods just as you now do. "But uh, I saw one..." well you're dreaming or nuts or something, there are no gods. And then of course there is the Bible which is a remarkable collection of testimonies to a particular one and only God., that millions upon millions have believed.
That is an interesting question, but is one I thought I’d ask you and not the other way around. It is interesting because it is at the hearth of the problem with religions, and in general, with any make-believe story. Before I answer let me ask you this: Why is it that gods, angels, ghosts and other supernatural entities have this very inconvenient policy of appearing only to individuals or small groups and leave them with no way to prove their experience? If what they want is to convey a message, all they are achieving is to make their intended messengers look like fruitcakes. Can’t they understand by now that there are more effective ways to communicate, like for example, starting by providing actual evidence of their existence for all to see?
So, what if I witnessed the apparition of a god? Assuming is not a mere hallucination but the real deal, I’d be scared. But I’d have no alternative but to recognise that after all, in the light of evidence, there is a god. Now, I’d be terrified if this god I’ve just met, was asking me to convey a message but was not giving me any evidence for me to demonstrate to others that my experience was genuine. I would know that no one would believe me and I would look like a fruitcake, and reasonably so. Probably the people who knows me and trusts me would think I had a hallucination and would recommend me to look for professional counselling. So this supernatural beings really need to improve their communication skills or I’d rather they don’t come anywhere near me.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 517 by Faith, posted 11-08-2017 12:55 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 546 by Faith, posted 11-09-2017 11:29 PM Paboss has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 544 of 1540 (823405)
11-09-2017 11:15 PM
Reply to: Message 542 by Modulous
11-09-2017 4:53 PM


Re: how faith is based on faith, not evidence
They aren't believable miracles and I don't even know if they are miracles. The comparison with Bibical descriptions of miracles is too pathetic to bother with.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 542 by Modulous, posted 11-09-2017 4:53 PM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
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 Message 563 by Modulous, posted 11-10-2017 1:50 PM Faith has not replied

  
Paboss
Member (Idle past 1765 days)
Posts: 55
Joined: 10-01-2017


Message 545 of 1540 (823406)
11-09-2017 11:23 PM
Reply to: Message 517 by Faith
11-08-2017 12:55 PM


Re: How Faith is based on evidence and yet a gift
Faith writes:
Yes Jesus also gave Paul direct evidence, but again we have to believe Paul about that
No, we certainly don’t.
Faith writes:
Where did I "assume" anything? I said "if they are true" then they are evidence. How one arrives at the assessment of their truth is another subject; the fact remains that IF they are true then they are evidence. It's only if you dismiss them as fiction that they can't be evidence for anything, but if you accept them as true, say perhaps because you judge John to be a faithful witness, then they are evidence for you and become a basis for receiving salvation through Christ, which is what John hoped. Such evidence can be a door into hitherto completely unsuspected supernatural realities.
By your circular reasoning is clear that you are assuming things. You do use the conditional if, but you have made clear that you do believe John’s account to be true. You think that John’s account is evidence because it is true and is true because it is evidence; that’s at least how I read your reasoning.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 517 by Faith, posted 11-08-2017 12:55 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 547 by Faith, posted 11-09-2017 11:31 PM Paboss has not replied
 Message 550 by jar, posted 11-09-2017 11:42 PM Paboss has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 546 of 1540 (823407)
11-09-2017 11:29 PM
Reply to: Message 543 by Paboss
11-09-2017 9:26 PM


Re: How Faith is based on evidence and yet a gift
I was merely trying to point out that when it comes to things invisible, or only whimsically visible, like "gods" you need sterling character to be believed and even that won't do it in an atmosphere of determined debunkery such as EvC, because it's all a matter of being believed, you can't prove it. I've been claiming that the Bible gives great evidence for its miracles, lots of witnesses, lots of detailed description, amd it builds over time from one generation to another too. John's desire to present information about events he witnessed so that his readers could believe and receive salvation from Jesus who did them, shows the need for evidence, which he provided to good purpose if he convinced many, which he must have.
The signs that the Bible is the truth are numerous and convincing, there is simply no comparison with any other religion, the idea is laughable, and the attitude of unthinking debunkery here has gone beyond any reasonable level that would deserve an answer.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 543 by Paboss, posted 11-09-2017 9:26 PM Paboss has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 547 of 1540 (823408)
11-09-2017 11:31 PM
Reply to: Message 545 by Paboss
11-09-2017 11:23 PM


Re: How Faith is based on evidence and yet a gift
Yes I believe John is trustworthy and his account is true, that's why his descriptions work as evidence for me as I've said many times, and can't be evidence for anyone who isn't able to recognize that John is trustworthy and his account true. That being the case there's really nothing more to say that I can see.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 545 by Paboss, posted 11-09-2017 11:23 PM Paboss has not replied

  
Paboss
Member (Idle past 1765 days)
Posts: 55
Joined: 10-01-2017


Message 548 of 1540 (823409)
11-09-2017 11:32 PM
Reply to: Message 527 by Percy
11-08-2017 6:37 PM


Re: How Faith is based on evidence and yet a gift
Percy writes:
I don't think Paboss was saying that we "have to accept all the religions as equal." I think he was more saying that there was nothing to judge any as being more or less true than the others.
Yes. Specifically, the point I was trying to get across was that if one believes in a supernatural claim only on the basis of being written in a holy book, then is only fair to accept all other supernatural claims made in all other holy books.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 527 by Percy, posted 11-08-2017 6:37 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 549 by Faith, posted 11-09-2017 11:36 PM Paboss has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 549 of 1540 (823410)
11-09-2017 11:36 PM
Reply to: Message 548 by Paboss
11-09-2017 11:32 PM


Re: How Faith is based on evidence and yet a gift
Which of course is ridiculous if one is far and away of higher quality in every conceivable category of believability and sheer greatness of thought as Christianity so obviously is. So believe as you will, I've said all I can think of to say and failed to convince you so there's no point in continuing to beat my head against this wall.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 548 by Paboss, posted 11-09-2017 11:32 PM Paboss has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 560 by Percy, posted 11-10-2017 12:47 PM Faith has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 550 of 1540 (823411)
11-09-2017 11:42 PM
Reply to: Message 545 by Paboss
11-09-2017 11:23 PM


Re: How Faith is based on evidence and yet a gift
Paboss writes:
Faith writes:
Yes Jesus also gave Paul direct evidence, but again we have to believe Paul about that
No, we certainly don’t.
The story of Paul's conversion is particularly suspect since as recorded in the Bible the details change and become more elaborate and mystical with every retelling. It is much like the The evolution of the Great Commission over time. There the story shows evolution over time as with all folk tales and fairy tales.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
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Paboss
Member (Idle past 1765 days)
Posts: 55
Joined: 10-01-2017


Message 551 of 1540 (823412)
11-09-2017 11:44 PM
Reply to: Message 517 by Faith
11-08-2017 12:55 PM


Re: How Faith is based on evidence and yet a gift
Faith writes:
Both are evidence, you merely have a prejudice in favor of direct evidence that you yourself can witness, as did Thomas. So does that mean if you go and tell someone else of what you witnessed but that person is not in a position to see it that your witness is false or isn't evidence?
Not necessarily false, but if I cannot produce any evidence I would have to understand if they don’t believe me.
Faith writes:
Witness evidence IS evidence, that is recognized in courts of law
I don’t know how it works in courts of law, but I’m sure there is more than simply taking witnesses for their word. Besides, courts of law deal with real life situations that can happen: Murder, car theft, someone breaking into someone else’s property. Those are things that unfortunately happen all the time and therefore is reasonable to believe they could be true. But when it comes to extraordinary claims the weight of the evidence would have to be also extraordinary. Words written in an ancient book, certainly do not qualify for that.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 517 by Faith, posted 11-08-2017 12:55 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 552 by Faith, posted 11-10-2017 12:04 AM Paboss has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 552 of 1540 (823416)
11-10-2017 12:04 AM
Reply to: Message 551 by Paboss
11-09-2017 11:44 PM


Re: How Faith is based on evidence and yet a gift
Words written in an ancient book, certainly do not qualify for that.
That is just plain stupid, sorry.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 551 by Paboss, posted 11-09-2017 11:44 PM Paboss has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 553 by PaulK, posted 11-10-2017 12:52 AM Faith has not replied
 Message 554 by Paboss, posted 11-10-2017 8:04 AM Faith has not replied
 Message 561 by Percy, posted 11-10-2017 1:01 PM Faith has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 553 of 1540 (823420)
11-10-2017 12:52 AM
Reply to: Message 552 by Faith
11-10-2017 12:04 AM


Re: How Faith is based on evidence and yet a gift
Faith, a story from a unknown and heavily biased person, written in a credulous age is not good evidence for a miracle. We don’t accept miracle stories from far more reliable books than the Gospels.
And although the courts accept witness evidence the witness should be available for cross-examination. When that is not available a formal deposition is required.
And if you want to talk about stupidity we might point to your trust in Infowars, even knowing that Alex Jones will promote obvious nonsense you still fell for Pizzagate and for the guy who claimed to have invented email.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 552 by Faith, posted 11-10-2017 12:04 AM Faith has not replied

  
Paboss
Member (Idle past 1765 days)
Posts: 55
Joined: 10-01-2017


Message 554 of 1540 (823426)
11-10-2017 8:04 AM
Reply to: Message 552 by Faith
11-10-2017 12:04 AM


Re: How Faith is based on evidence and yet a gift
Faith,
So is my comment stupid? And why is that? Are you going to loose your temper again? Just don’t. Rather, show us the infinite knowledge that should be flowing through your regenerated mind. After all, if God is with you, you should be blowing us all away with his insight. Imagine how much wisdom would have an omniscient being who has been around forever. Instead, your debating abilities seem to have fallen to disappointing levels.
You say you’re beating your head against this wall. Well, it’s a wall you have put up yourself. It’s a wall of cognitive dissonance and you will keep beating your head against it for as long as you keep trying to defend the indefensible.
I am not the Bible’s worst enemy; neither is anyone here. It is not Satan and his hordes; neither is Science. The Bible’s worst enemy is the Bible itself. It’s all you need to have a conscious look at to realise that its god is just a projection of the primitive, ignorant and violent men who wrote it; nothing amazing to see there.
Edited by Paboss, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 552 by Faith, posted 11-10-2017 12:04 AM Faith has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 555 by jar, posted 11-10-2017 9:20 AM Paboss has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 555 of 1540 (823427)
11-10-2017 9:20 AM
Reply to: Message 554 by Paboss
11-10-2017 8:04 AM


The Bible's worst enemy
Paboss writes:
The Bible’s worst enemy is the Bible itself. It’s all you need to have a conscious look at to realise that its god is just a projection of the primitive, ignorant and violent men who wrote it; nothing amazing to see there.
I kinda disagree.
I believe the Bibles worst enemy are the so called Inerrant Bible Christians. By trying to pretend that the Bible is not simply a creation of humans, by trying to pretend that there is actually one Bible, by trying to pretend it is just one story with one purpose, by pretending that it is factually correct and has no contradictions, by failing to teach the actual history of Bible Creation and of how humans decided what should go in and what should be excluded and so ended up up with a whole bunch of lists of what is in that range from a Bible that has only the books that had been canonized around the time Jesus was supposed to have lived to Canons that include over 80 books; they set themselves and the Bible up for failure, drive people away from Christianity and do the work of the Devil.
The Bible's worst enemy are the Biblical Christians.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 554 by Paboss, posted 11-10-2017 8:04 AM Paboss has replied

Replies to this message:
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