|
Register | Sign In |
|
QuickSearch
EvC Forum active members: 64 (9164 total) |
| |
ChatGPT | |
Total: 916,767 Year: 4,024/9,624 Month: 895/974 Week: 222/286 Day: 29/109 Hour: 2/3 |
Thread ▼ Details |
|
Thread Info
|
|
|
Author | Topic: Catholics are making it up. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Tangle Member Posts: 9509 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
ringo writes:
My point is that no, we shouldn't take seriously their ideas on how families should behave. Well you're not going to get me to disagree with that. That's kindof my point
If African families take them seriously and spread HIV as a result, that's a different issue. "We" are not Africans. "We" can not solve African problems by blathering Right, Africa's not your problem. Best to shut up and just hope it goes away. Not happening here, best not talk about it. However, child rape and cover up is on your doorstep; not interested in that either? Not a problem just invite the boss over anyway.
Pope Francis became the first pontiff to address the United States Congress on Thursday. [...] After the speech, members of Congress from both sides of the aisle lauded the pope's speech, with many praising his message of compassion for society's most vulnerable. Now that's not to say that this isn't a reforming pope with his heart in the right place - he actually seems like a decent guy trying to do some decent things. But he's still proclaiming saints in a mediaeval manner and he's not going to overturn anything important just yet. And, by the way, this thread is about Catholics making it up - and they just made up two more saints and published it to the world in order to publicise their conclave. It's news and it's barking mad. Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Tangle Member Posts: 9509 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
ringo writes: No. Best to stop whining about it on the Internet and do something tangible. Need I remind you that 'whining' is the entire and total purpose of this site. If you don't like people talking about the rights and wrongs of religion, you're in the wrong place.
There probably are plumbers who rape children Yeh, for sure. However, this is a site where we talk about religion not plumbing. And it's proven to be the case that a large number of Catholic clerics of all ranks have systematically raped children and that the organisation that feels it is pious enough to tell the world how to behave has covered it up. The world plumbers union is not putting itself forward as a model of global moral leadership and so far has not been found guilty of global scale criminal activity. Maybe there's no sensible comparison between them?Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Tangle Member Posts: 9509 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
^^^ righto, you've got to point of arguing for the sake of it and deliberately missing the point faster than usual, so I'll leave it there for the moment.
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Tangle Member Posts: 9509 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
Woops
The Vatican says it has arrested two people, a high-ranking priest and a former employee, on suspicion of leaking confidential documents. They were members of a commission set up by Pope Francis to help reform Church finances. Officials believe they passed records of its discussions to journalists investigating Vatican corruption. The documents form the basis of two new books on the controversial state of the Vatican's finances. Vatican leaks: Two arrested in new scandal - BBC News It looks like a little more of the financial corruption at the heart of the Vatican is going to scupper pope F's attempt to spin the outcome of the Family synod. I do feel sorry for this chap - he seems a genuinely a decent bloke.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm. |
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Tangle Member Posts: 9509 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
Mother Teresa is hurtling in a reckless, but very modern PR way into sainthood. To achieve this accelerated promotion she performed a 'miracle.'
VATICAN CITY -- Pope Francis has signed off on the miracle needed to make Mother Teresa a saint, giving the tiny nun who cared for the poorest of the poor one of the Catholic Church's highest honours just two decades after her death. The Vatican said Friday that Francis approved a decree attributing a miracle to Mother Teresa's intercession during an audience with the head of the Vatican's saint-making office on Thursday, his 79th birthday. No date was set for the canonization, but Italian media have speculated that the ceremony will take place in the first week of September -- to coincide with the anniversary of her death and during Francis' Holy Year of Mercy."This is fantastic news. We are very happy," said Sunita Kumar, a spokeswoman for the Missionaries of Charity in the eastern city of Kolkata (earlier called Calcutta), where Mother Teresa lived and worked. The miracle responsible for Mother Teresa's canonization concerned the inexplicable cure of a Brazilian man suffering from a viral brain infection that resulted in multiple abscesses. By Dec. 9, 2008, he was in a coma and dying, suffering from an accumulation of fluid around the brain. The Rev. Brian Kolodiejchuk, the postulator spearheading Mother Teresa's canonization case, said in a statement Friday that some 30 minutes after the man was due to undergo surgery that never took place, he sat up, awake and without pain, and was a day later declared to be symptom-free. The Vatican later attributed the cure to the fervent prayers to Mother Teresa's intercession by the man's wife, who precisely at the time of his scheduled surgery was at her parish church, praying alongside her pastor. Nice to see such a direct causal link between action and outcome. I find it embarrassing that grown-ups still talk like this, it sounds mediaeval. The first 'miracle' was actually denied by its recipient - he said he was cured by his medication. Funny that.
But Mother Teresa’s first miracle has officially been recognized for more than a decade. In 1998, one year after her death, her intercession reportedly cured an Indian woman of a stomach tumor. TIME reported the story of Monica Besra and her tumor in 2001. There was no way any doctor would have operated on me at that hour, Besra told TIME of writhing in pain in a home that was run by Mother Teresa’s Missionaries of Charity on Sept. 5, 1998. So the nuns just started praying and kept a Mother Teresa medallion on my stomach. The pain subsided, and the tumor vanished. As Episcopal Bishop Salvatore Lobo explained at the time, Besra’s recovery met the requirements to be declared a miracle: It is organic, permanent, immediate and intercessionary in nature. Though Besra’s husband would later say that he believed that medicine had cured his wife, not divine intervention, Mother Teresa’s first miracle was officially recognized by the Vatican and counted toward her beatification in 2003. This is the latest 'miracle'
Vatican City (AsiaNews) - The following is the official statement of the postulator of the cause of canonization of Mother Teresa, Fr. Brian Kolodiejchuk, MC, presenting the miracle that led to Pope Francis’ decision to proclaim her a saint. On 17 December 2015, Pope Francis approved the promulgation of the decree recognizing a miracle attributed to the intercession of Blessed Teresa of Kolkata. The case submitted by the Postulation of her Cause of Canonization concerns the miraculous healing that took place in 2008 in Santos, Brazil. The case involves a man having a viral brain infection that resulted in multiple abscesses with triventricular hydrocephalus. The various treatments undertaken were not effective, and thus his condition continuously worsened. By 9 December 2008 the patient was in an acute clinical state: obstructive hydrocephalus; he was in a coma and dying. It was decided to proceed with emergency surgery. At 18:10 the patient was taken to the operating room, but the Anesthesiologist could not perform the tracheal intubation for anesthesia. Meanwhile, from March 2008, the patient's wife continuously sought the intercession of Blessed Mother Teresa for her husband. To her own prayers of intercession were joined those of her relatives, friends, and the parish priest, all of whom were praying for a miraculous cure through the intercession of Mother Teresa. On this same day, 9 December 2008, when the patient entered into serious crisis and had to be taken for an emergency operation, intensified prayers were addressed to Blessed Teresa for his recovery. Precisely between the hours of 18.10 and 18.40 the patient's wife went to her parish church, and along with the pastor, turned to Blessed Teresa begging with greater determination the cure of her dying husband. At 18.40 the neurosurgeon returned to the operating room and found the patient inexplicably awake and without pain. The patient asked the doctor, "what I am doing here?" The next morning, December 10, 2008, when examined at 7.40 the patient was fully awake and without any headache; he was asymptomatic with normal cognition. The patient, now completely healed, resumed his work as a mechanical engineer without any particular limitation. In addition, it should be emphasized that despite the tests that showed a state of sterility due to the intense and prolonged immunosuppression and antibiotics, the couple have two healthy children born in 2009 and 2012. On 10 September of this year, the medical commission voted unanimously that the cure is inexplicable in the light of present-day medical knowledge. On 8 October the theological commission also voted unanimously that there was a perfect connection of cause and effect between the invocation of Mother Teresa and the scientifically inexplicable healing. On 15 December the case received the final approval of the congress of Cardinals and Bishops of the Congregation for the Causes of Saints meeting in ordinary session. The date of the canonization will be officially announced in the next Consistory of Cardinals. Fr. Brian Kolodiejchuk, MC Edited by Tangle, : No reason given. Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Tangle Member Posts: 9509 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
Dredge writes: If you don't believe ANY miracles are possible, then naturally you are going to deny any claimed by the Catholic Church. Naturally. But what is your point?Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Tangle Member Posts: 9509 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
Dredge writes: No, I don't think that's correct. My understanding is, this Pope wants but so far he's been unsuccessful due to opposition from most of the other bishops. Well you tell me, can they or can't they? it's a binary thing. I just spent ten minutes looking and got caught in the Alice in Wonderland world of Catholic 'law'. It's utterly hilarious, proper angels on pin head stuff. Because it's all totally fabricated anyone can say anything they like. I love this:
quote: This cardinal is responsible for interpreting Alice Law. I'm tempted to say that you couldn't make it up but clearly they can. These pompous idiots are deciding whether married people are in a state of mortal sin - ie going straight to hell - by being married. The chutzpah of it. Simply hilarious.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Tangle Member Posts: 9509 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
Dredge writes: But if you refuse point blank to believe in miracles, no amount of evidence will ever be enough. What's belief got to do with it? Miracles are supernatural interventions in our natural world. If they existed we'd have so much evidence for them that belief would not be a factor. I don't believe in dousing because it doesn't work. I don't believe in miracles because there aren't any. Show me a miracle and I'll accept it as fact, show me a douser that can detect water in controlled conditions and I'll accept it.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Tangle Member Posts: 9509 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
Dredge writes: If a woman (or an accomplice) confesses an abortion, an ordinary priest is not allowed to grant absolution, but has to ask the local bishop for permission as a means of emphasizing the evil of such sins. Remember that the title of this thread is 'Catholics are making it up?' Well thanks for a new example.
As far as I know, it is a grave sin for any Catholic anywhere to use contraception. And here's another one. It was deemed not to be a sin if your conscience allows it in the early 60s or so. A really nice cop out which slowed down the massive haemorrhage of good Christian parents leaving the Catholic faith for a more user-friendly one. So, of course, virtually every Catholic in modern Western democracies practices contraception and priests don't bother anybody anymore. When was the last time you saw a family of ten kids?Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Tangle Member Posts: 9509 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
By complete chance, today I went to Santiago de Compostela in Northern Spain as a tourist. It's a UNESCO world heritage site and also the third most important site of pilgrimage for the Catholic church being the alleged resting place for St James the disciple's body after he was decapitated. You can look at the casket he's apparently in in the crypt - after paying of course.
Well, talk about making stuff up. The entire site is one long series of myths and legends woven into centuries of money making religious ventures, gouging pilgrims from all over the world for privileges and indulgences. Pilgrimages mean money for a town but to get to be a place of pilgrimage you need religious stories. The story of the miraculous finding of the body of St James involves deceit, continental travel, miraculous starlight and guidance by wild animals. The town became wealthy - there are 80 Catholic churches within the one square kilometre. If you can get yourself buried in the Cathedral you automatically go to heaven. If you make a pilgrimage to the Cathedral when St Jame's birthday - or was it his deathday? - falls on a Sunday you automatically get to heaven. (But you have to have walked over 100km, for this to work.) The symbol of Santiago is the scollop shell but to get one you could only buy it from the church - they had a nationwide monopoly. The fantasies just go on and on .... and people still believe them. Some nice buildings though.
According to a tradition that can be traced back at least to the 12th century, when it was recorded in the Codex Calixtinus, Saint James decided to return to the Holy Land after preaching in Galicia. There he was beheaded, but his disciples managed to get his body to Jaffa, where they found a marvelous stone ship which miraculously conducted them and the apostle's body to Iria Flavia, back in Galicia. There, the disciples asked the local pagan queen Loba ('She-wolf') for permission to bury the body; she, annoyed, decided to deceive them, sending them to pick a pair of oxen she allegedly had by the Pico Sacro, a local sacred mountain where a dragon dwelt, hoping that the dragon would kill the Christians, but as soon as the beast attacked the disciples, at the sight of the cross, the dragon exploded. Then the disciples marched to collect the oxen, which were actually wild bulls which the queen used to punish her enemies; but again, at the sight of the Christian's cross, the bulls calmed down, and after being subjected to a yoke they carried the apostle's body to the place where now Compostela is. The legend was again referred with minor changes by the Czech traveller Jaroslav Lev of Romitl, in the 15th century.[18] The relics were said to have been later rediscovered in the 9th century by a hermit named Pelagius, who after observing strange lights in a local forest went for help after the local bishop, Theodemar of Iria, in the west of Galicia. The legend affirms that Theodemar was then guided to the spot by a star, drawing upon a familiar myth-element, hence "Compostela" was given an etymology as a corruption of Campus Stellae, "Field of Stars." In the 15th century, the red banner which guided the Galician armies to battle, was still preserved in the Cathedral of Santiago de Compostela, in the centre Saint James riding a white horse and wearing a white cloak, sword in hand:[19] The legend of the miraculous armed intervention of Saint James, disguised as a white knight to help the Christians when battling the Muslims, was a recurrent myth during the High Middle Ages.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm. |
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Tangle Member Posts: 9509 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
RAZD writes: What's special about catholics Apart from them being the largest religious organisation on the planet?
Is it somehow better if someone else made it up and then you are told to believe it? I've read this a few times but still don't understand the question.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Tangle Member Posts: 9509 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
RAZD writes: Each religion organization has text material that has stories someone else made up that they tell the followers to believe. Does that make the stories better? Does it make them less made up? Sure, all religions and their books and rituals are made up. I'm just pointing out the ludicrousness of the Catholic version. Catholic 'traditions' are dafter and more convoluted than most and as a result are having to change to prevent further loss of followers. The fact that a belief needs to change this radically is evidence of how nonsensical it all is.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Tangle Member Posts: 9509 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8
|
RAZD writes: Having existed through (and been a major cause of) the dark ages, while maintaining services in an archaic language that very few (church elites) understood, where pomp and ceremony were the drawing points for the crowds, I would expect no less. During that period they were predominantly a political, diplomatic, financial and military force - religion was the shop front but their purpose was power and control. They had staggering wealth and power and abused it horribly.
How do they compare to Orthodox Greek Christians? No idea, it ain't my background.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Tangle Member Posts: 9509 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
RAZD writes: And I think any ceremony or procession or need to get approval for anything (like weddings, etc) has to be made up. All our social structures are made up and they have no reason to either change or stay the same unless we decide there are benefits to be had by leaving them alone or changing them. But with religions - and I'm picking on Catholicism here because it's the biggest and I know most about it - their beliefs are based on what they say they know about god's own structures and desires. They claim knowledge. So they taught the existence of purgatory, then abandonned it. They taught indulgencies for rituals - and probably still do in some less developed countries. They teach that contraception is a mortal sin punishable by everlating damnation - except in the developed world where it isn't. Their priests must be celebate, except when they adopt converts from Anglicans to help their failing recruitment. And so on. They have made all this up and are abandonning it because the societies they operate in won't tolerate it any more. They are abandonning what were important 'truths' because they have become embarassing and inconvenient.
Can you think of any church is not involved in power and control of people and wealth? There are several religions/belief systems that seem fairly benevolent and several forms of christianity itself that are as extreme in their moderacy as Catholicism was, and is, in it's meglamania. But Catholicism's history is almost unique in its overt power play. At the height of its power it was the strongest force in Europe. In the 1500s if you did not do what your priest told you you were in a lot of trouble both in this life and the next.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Tangle Member Posts: 9509 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
There's a papal face-off in the news today.
Pope Benedict resigned - in itself a massively controversial issue, how can a man appointed by god himself resign his post? - but is now intervening in Pope Francis's decisions about celebacy. There's a global problem in priest recruitment caused by the paedophile and abusive priests outrage and improving education generally. There's a particular problem in Africa where the church's evil policy on contraceptives is killing millions and in the Amazon where they can't recruit priests because of their celibacy law. So Francis want to allow Amazonian priests to marry but Benedict is intervening and says that they mustn't. Catholics are having to make stuff up faster and faster these days. Retired Pope Benedict warns Francis against relaxing priestly celibacy rules - BBC News Two deluded old crackpots (actually I quite like Francis, he seems to at least follow something like Christ's message and a little less of the Catholic dogma.)
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
|
|
|
Do Nothing Button
Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved
Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024