Ignorance and Arrogance

KP, you need to use the QUOTE function.

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Originally posted by KingPenguin:
/B]

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That would be a valid argument if there were no evidence whatsoever....Trouble is there is evidence and it doesn`t support YECism....Total lack of evidence and a plethora of evidence against your world view are different, your continued claim that there is no evidence shows that the filter demon isn`t such an odd concept after all (at least as a metaphysical abstraction).....

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[This message has been edited by joz, 03-24-2002]

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Originally posted by KingPenguin:
... the author is obviously being juvenile...

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A concise Glenn Morton bio:
http://www.glenn.morton.btinternet.co.uk/auth.htmI'm sure others in the evolution / creation debate are much more familiar with Glenn Morton's history, that I am.I will say, that he is someone who had a strong and prominent YEC viewpoint in the past, before coming around to a more moderate position.The homepage is at:
http://www.glenn.morton.btinternet.co.uk/Moose------------------
BS degree, geology, '83
Professor, geology, Whatsamatta U
Old Earth evolution - Yes
Godly creation - Maybe

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Originally posted by KingPenguin:

We most likely wont agree with it until you can provide rock solid proof of it, especially if it contradicts our standing beliefs but you are the same way as well.

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KP,Do you not see your double standard? You require "rock solid proof" of evolution, etc. But you allow yourself the luxury of a position based on a TOTALLY unsubstantiated (from a supernatural POV) tome.Evolution has evidence & you don't. So we are not the same.Mark------------------
Occam's razor is not for shaving with.

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Originally posted by gene90:
KP, you need to use the QUOTE function.

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sorry if ya couldnt decipher it but "---" means im talkin. its probably hard to make out. ill try harder next time.------------------
"Overspecialize and you breed in weakness" -"Major" Motoko Kusanagi

"That would be a valid argument if there were no evidence whatsoever...."
---no evidence of? both have evidence and both have good explanations. however evolution doesnt think that it is up to the challenge of a beginning so there really isnt a comparison."Trouble is there is evidence and it doesn`t support YECism...."
---YEC cannot be disproven, its a faith not a scientific theory.Total lack of evidence and a plethora of evidence against your world view are different, your continued claim that there is no evidence shows that the filter demon isn`t such an odd concept after all (at least as a metaphysical abstraction)....."
--i never said that there was no evidence of evolution, i said it wasnt sufficient to make it a valid non assuming natural fact. I have said that its not proven, ive never said its not plausable. also if you provided me with sufficient evidence that i would need to be convinced that it was taking place and could have large beneficial effects over a long period of time, i would be very interested.------------------
"Overspecialize and you breed in weakness" -"Major" Motoko Kusanagi

whether or not he is YEC or evolutionist doesnt effect the way his work and theoreis are written and how much credibility they are given, at least id hope not. Also i did mean in that post and providing me a bio doesnt let me meet him face to face.------------------
"Overspecialize and you breed in weakness" -"Major" Motoko Kusanagi

"Do you not see your double standard? You require "rock solid proof" of evolution, etc. But you allow yourself the luxury of a position based on a TOTALLY unsubstantiated (from a supernatural POV) tome."
---your trying to prove evolution to me arent you? or are you only going to whine at me and disagree with my view simply because its based on something different and has little physical evidence."Evolution has evidence & you don't. So we are not the same."
---discrimination based on disagreement. I can see the that you have a great apathy for Creationism or anything that isnt backed intirely by the "lead" scientists.------------------
"Overspecialize and you breed in weakness" -"Major" Motoko Kusanagi

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Originally posted by KingPenguin:

"Do you not see your double standard? You require "rock solid proof" of evolution, etc. But you allow yourself the luxury of a position based on a TOTALLY unsubstantiated (from a supernatural POV) tome."
---your trying to prove evolution to me arent you? or are you only going to whine at me and disagree with my view simply because its based on something different and has little physical evidence.

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No, I’m not trying to prove anything to you. I am showing you your double standards. You are assuming a position opposing evolution because it hasn’t been proved to you. Yet your own position hasn’t the slightest shred of evidence to support it. This could be the dictionary definition of hypocrisy.

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Originally posted by KingPenguin:

"Evolution has evidence & you don't. So we are not the same."
---discrimination based on disagreement. I can see the that you have a great apathy for Creationism or anything that isnt backed intirely by the "lead" scientists.

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It is NOT discrimination based on disagreement. It is a FACT. Evolution has supporting evidence & God doesn’t. I’m sure you would LIKE to reduce this to a simple matter of opinion, but truthfully, it isn’t. Opinions differ because one theory is scientific & has supporting evidence, the other is baseless belief.Show me to be wrong or retract that statement.ps Message 9 at http://www.evcforum.net/cgi-bin/dm.cgi?action=page&f=1&t=162&p=17 awaits your answer.Cheers,Mark------------------
Occam's razor is not for shaving with.

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[This message has been edited by mark24, 03-26-2002]

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[This message has been edited by mark24, 03-26-2002]

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AN EXPERIMENT IN MAKING A DECISION TO BELIEVE:
If believing is a decision, then decide to believe in evolution for ten minutes. When your ten minutes is up, then you can decide to believe in creationism again. Now answer the following:
1. What was it that you experienced when you believed in evolution for those ten minutes?
2. What facts and information about evolution did you believe in?
3. Why was it that you didn't believe in Creationism for those ten minutes?
4. How easy is it to choose to believe?

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That was an interesting example you provided, no2creation. Do you mind If I keep it ?Oh btw, hello all! I'm a newbie, so please be kind. /ducks for cover

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Originally posted by KingPenguin:
1)no evidence of? both have evidence and both have good explanations. however evolution doesnt think that it is up to the challenge of a beginning so there really isnt a comparison.

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2)YEC cannot be disproven, its a faith not a scientific theory.

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3)i never said that there was no evidence of evolution, i said it wasnt sufficient to make it a valid non assuming natural fact. I have said that its not proven, ive never said its not plausable. also if you provided me with sufficient evidence that i would need to be convinced that it was taking place and could have large beneficial effects over a long period of time, i would be very interested.

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1)If there was absolutely no evidence for either YEC or ancient universe/evolutionary paradigms then there would be no problem with using metaphysics as the sole determinant of objective reality....The problem you have is that there is a plethora of evidence against YEC and for the old universe, ancient starlight, radioisotope dating, record of magnetic reversals, fossil record etc....YEC has good explanations? Ok ancient starlight, explain away without inventing a large gravity well that the earth sat in and then miraculously escaped from or the concept of God the deciever (creator of a young universe that appears old) which is inconsistent with the christian paradigm of an omnibenevolent God....Where is the evidence for the YEC paradigm? Oh yeah its a 2000 year old religious tract....2)Yes it is a religious faith, yes it can be disproven, and it has been, by showing that the earth is older than YECs claim, the fact that YECs will not accept evidence in order to protect their demonstrably wrong paradigm is inconsequential to that paradigms status as disproven....(Although it does show the utility of the filter demon as a philosophical construct.)3)Wow thats a messy (and flawed) use of the English language (the part in italics) if this is some sort of argument about the use of evidence for evolution being circular a la Fred Williams in the Haldanes dilemma discussion it is essential that you remember that evolution/ancient universe displaced YEC IOW Data derived using the YEC paradigm was found to be better explained by the ancient universe/evolutionary paradigm....Oh and I don`t have to show every step of the evolutionary process to demonstrate the falacious nature of the YEC paradigm, I merely have to show that the world is not in fact (and cannot be) young... Enter radiometric dating, geomagnetic reversals, ancient starlight, Cosmic background radiation et al.....(edited to include reference to filter demon)...

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[This message has been edited by joz, 04-04-2002]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Astonos:
[b]

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AN EXPERIMENT IN MAKING A DECISION TO BELIEVE:
If believing is a decision, then decide to believe in evolution for ten minutes. When your ten minutes is up, then you can decide to believe in creationism again. Now answer the following:
1. What was it that you experienced when you believed in evolution for those ten minutes?
2. What facts and information about evolution did you believe in?
3. Why was it that you didn't believe in Creationism for those ten minutes?
4. How easy is it to choose to believe?

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[QUOTE] That was an interesting example you provided, no2creation. Do you mind If I keep it ?Oh btw, hello all! I'm a newbie, so please be kind. /ducks for cover[/b][/QUOTE]Welcome Astonos.My example was provided to demonstrate how believing in something isn't a simple decision or choice. Believing is the result of the collaboration of information obtained and retained in the human mind. You do not make a conscious effort to 'Make the Decision' or 'Choose' to believe, and if you had, then the experiment should be easy...Glad you liked the example.