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Member (Idle past 1432 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
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Author | Topic: Modern Democratic Socialized Capitalism is not Evil | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
xongsmith Member Posts: 2587 From: massachusetts US Joined: Member Rating: 6.4 |
squirrel wrote
You would need to sell this idea to a significant bunch of Republican voters. Nice thought. But after 60 years of watching them....i mean EVEN Susan Collins of Maine?? The GOP is now the only political party I have seen in my lifetime who actually wants to KILL their own Americans out loud. Blatantly. Hello. No. They should all just DIE and get the fuck off the earth. IMNSHO....- xongsmith, 5.7d
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Tangle Member Posts: 9510 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
RAZD writes: Ignoring it here has given us today's republican congress that caters only to the rich (see new tax plan), and they in turn have given us Trump. fwiw, I'm of the same opinion but less rabid about it - possibly because I don't have to live in the US and put up with it. Your problem is that the solutions are there, you just have to vote for them or build them but seemingly the US voter doesn't want the sort of economy you want. Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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ringo Member (Idle past 439 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
New Cat's Eye writes:
The operative word is "some", as opposed to the "human nature" that Phat claimed. Some people desire more profit or more power.
They're also profitable...
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Phat Member Posts: 18339 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
...seemingly the US voter doesn't want the sort of economy you want.
When they say they want to make America great again, they are living in the past. They want to make America like it was after the aberration. They want life to be as potentially profitable as it was back before the deficit and wars and global competition burst our dream bubble. I know I sometimes wish for more fairness but the conservatives wont support me. they claim that I had my chance and blew it and they wont support me or my kind.
Unconscious Reactions Separate Liberals and ConservativesNotable: quote: Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
Me in msg 11 writes: RAZD writes: It is time for corporations to become democratically operated institutions. What is your route for going about it? And what's stopping you? RAZD has acknowledged this reply You really have no answers for these questions? What are you going on about, then?
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
Yeah, oligarchies exist because some people want to get ahead and also because they work well at doing that.
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ringo Member (Idle past 439 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
New Cat's Eye writes:
And the sky is blue. And water is wet. Thanks for your contribution.
Yeah, oligarchies exist because some people want to get ahead and also because they work well at doing that.
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1432 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
Yeah, oligarchies exist because some people want to get ahead ... ... and some people are sociopaths that don't care diddly about other people. Not surprisingly capitalism appears to selects for sociopaths to run ruthless companies, as they are disproportionately represented.
... and also because they work well at doing that. ... like I said, sociopaths prosper under capitalism. Oligarchies exist because rich and powerful people are remarkably effective at getting their way and suppressing poor people. Again, the recent tax bill for example, through corrupting the republican party. Read Howard Zinn for starters. Enjoyby our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1432 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
So now you're going to stalk me because I don't jump to your tune?
What is your route for going about it? And what's stopping you? Raising peoples awareness for starters. Like yours. Because you are (a) in denial about the value of democracy v oligarchy and (b) your actual value. Just because you make more than other people and are comfortable in your economic situation, because you are doing better than those on minimum wage. Curiously, I would have thought that was self evident. Enjoyby our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
From Message 23:
Yeah, oligarchies exist because some people want to get ahead ... ... and some people are sociopaths that don't care diddly about other people. Also, there are perfectly normal people who go all amoral when making business decisions. It's like "It's just business!" is supposed to be some bullshit phrase where you don't have to act morally, or something. I dunno, it's weird.
Not surprisingly capitalism appears to selects for sociopaths to run ruthless companies, as they are disproportionately represented. It's a lot easier to make amoral business decisions when you don't have morals to begin with.
Oligarchies exist because rich and powerful people are remarkably effective at getting their way and suppressing poor people. Oligarchies are also an effective way to run a business. From Message 24:
Raising peoples awareness for starters. Like yours. I'll let you know if/when it gets raised.
Because you are (a) in denial about the value of democracy v oligarchy Where did I deny that?
(b) your actual value. I think that was supposed to be me being in denial of my actual value. It's not that I deny it, its that I don't care about it.
Just because you make more than other people and are comfortable in your economic situation, because you are doing better than those on minimum wage. That's a lie.
Curiously, I would have thought that was self evident. Sorry, I assumed you were better than this.
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1432 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
Also, there are perfectly normal people who go all amoral when making business decisions. It's like "It's just business!" is supposed to be some bullshit phrase where you don't have to act morally, or something. I dunno, it's weird.
Not surprisingly capitalism appears to selects for sociopaths to run ruthless companies, as they are disproportionately represented. It's a lot easier to make amoral business decisions when you don't have morals to begin with. So we agree that capitalism rewards sociopathic behavior in running companies, and whether or not they were originally sociopathic or became sociopathic in the running of a company is not really relevant, other than that the second could be curable.
Oligarchies exist because rich and powerful people are remarkably effective at getting their way and suppressing poor people. Oligarchies are also an effective way to run a business. Curiously effectiveness does not necessarily equal good or equitable. A Roman galley powered by slaves is an effective machine. A Greek one powered by cooperation of soldiers/volunteers is also an effective machine.
Because you are (a) in denial about the value of democracy v oligarchy Where did I deny that? Well I kinda get that impression every time you say things like "Oligarchies are also an effective way to run a business" and (Message 96) "I think another part of it is that it's harder to get a bunch of people to agree and take responsibility for everything than it is to just have one motherfucker in charge of the whole thing."
I think that was supposed to be me being in denial of my actual value. It's not that I deny it, its that I don't care about it. Well, that's one way to resolve cognitive dissonance.
That's a lie. You are free to think so. Enjoyby our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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Tangle Member Posts: 9510 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
Well RAZ, you're still railing against the system, what you're not doing is explaining why it will change. Apart from a worker uprising of course.
The problem you have is that capitalism is an effective system and it's been rewarded by structural advantages in the form of taxation policies, ownership rights, investment and lending structures, business law and, particularly in your country, a cult of the individual and personal achievement. Alternative methods of company formations are of course possible - the co-op being the most obvious - but despite the USA having the largest proportion of these, they're still a minority interest. Here in the UK co-ops are 0.7% of the economy and 75% or so are in retail, 15% or so is agriculture and sports and social clubs. Until the financial crash there was a relatively large chunk of money in mutual savings companies - our building societies - but they were almost all carpet bagged by real capitalists. But here's the problem, most people with money to invest will wish to get all the benefits of their risk and investment, not share it out with others who didn't take the risk. Co-ops were invented to help those who didn't have money to pool their limited resources and do more than they could individually, hence the mutuals and agricultural co-ops, but they don't have a huge cash fund at start unlike the more capitalist systems. They also often have difficulty with decision making and investment making and are generally small scale and slow. There are of course exceptions - Mondragon is a good one. The question to answer is why would an individual entrepreneur or venture cap company choose the structure of a co-op rather than a standard ltd company? In my opinion he'd mostly only do it if he can't raise finance, because if he can, he get to keep the gain. And why wouldn't you want to do that? The key trick is to change human nature.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm. |
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
Curiously effectiveness does not necessarily equal good or equitable. Sure, but it determines success. Don't you think oligarchies are more effective than co-ops, be it good or bad? Isn't that a part of why they've been more successful?
Because you are (a) in denial about the value of democracy v oligarchy Where did I deny that? Well I kinda get that impression every time you say things like "Oligarchies are also an effective way to run a business" and (Message 96) "I think another part of it is that it's harder to get a bunch of people to agree and take responsibility for everything than it is to just have one motherfucker in charge of the whole thing." But I'm not denying the value of co-ops. I'm just recognizing a particular value of oligarchies there. Your impression is irrational and untrue. Look, I get it. Co-ops are cool. I just don't see them working as well and I'm not sure how your goal is going to be accomplished. Here, what if I used a different approach: Dude, I'm so convinced. It is time for corporations to become democratically operated institutions. Here's my questions: What is your route for going about it? And what's stopping you?
I think that was supposed to be me being in denial of my actual value. It's not that I deny it, its that I don't care about it. Well, that's one way to resolve cognitive dissonance. But I'm not dissonant
That's a lie. You are free to think so. It's also true.
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1432 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined:
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Sure, but it determines success. Don't you think oligarchies are more effective than co-ops, be it good or bad? Isn't that a part of why they've been more successful? Depends on your definitions of effective and success. Compare Oligarchy Health Insurance in the US with socialist Health Care in Canada. Do they make more money? Yes. Does that make them more effective? Do they do a better job of providing healthcare? No. Does that make them more successful?
Dude, I'm so convinced. It is time for corporations to become democratically operated institutions. Here's my questions: What is your route for going about it? ... Education, political advocating, raising people's awareness, communication, demonstrations, etc
... And what's stopping you? What makes you think I'm stopped. Or that it will happen overnight? Enjoyby our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
Sure, but it determines success. Don't you think oligarchies are more effective than co-ops, be it good or bad? Isn't that a part of why they've been more successful?
Depends on your definitions of effective and success. In this context, it is the effectiveness of the running of the business and it is measured by how successful that business is - that is, how much business they are doing. Oligarchies do more business than co-ops and so they are more successful. The question is why. Your explanation is basically that people are evil. I'm saying that from a business perspective, oligarchies work better.
Dude, I'm so convinced. It is time for corporations to become democratically operated institutions. Here's my questions: What is your route for going about it? ... Education, political advocating, raising people's awareness, communication, demonstrations, etc How's that working out for you?
... And what's stopping you? What makes you think I'm stopped. I see a lot of oligarchies and not very many co-ops. The oligarchies seem to be winning.
Or that it will happen overnight? It is certainly not happening overnight. Is it happening at all?
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