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Author Topic:   Executive Pay - Good Capitalism Bad Capitalism?
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 112 of 135 (824863)
12-04-2017 11:51 AM
Reply to: Message 107 by Phat
12-04-2017 11:17 AM


Re: What someone gets vs what they earn vs what they are worth
I always wondered why you didnt like unions....now I'm starting to see your mindset... My Republican friend always tells me that its not his responsibility to fund my retirement. They just want us to die and get out of the way so that their kids have room to thrive.
Well that's not why I don't like unions.
I've just never had a need for one and my experience in dealing with them has been unpleasant.
In another post you mentioned differences in mindsets on fairness. I believe in having fairness in opportunity but I don't expect fairness in outcome. And I'm against a state trying to force fairness in outcome by restricting opportunity.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 107 by Phat, posted 12-04-2017 11:17 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 113 by NoNukes, posted 12-04-2017 12:05 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 116 of 135 (824869)
12-04-2017 12:49 PM
Reply to: Message 113 by NoNukes
12-04-2017 12:05 PM


Re: What someone gets vs what they earn vs what they are worth
I believe in having fairness in opportunity but I don't expect fairness in outcome. And I'm against a state trying to force fairness in outcome by restricting opportunity.
I think everybody is onboard with this, and that the difference in where people stand lies in what they define as opportunity vs outcome?
It seems to me that the leftists want to force equality of outcome.
Is getting a great education and opportunity or an outcome?
Getting the education is an outcome. Having access to it is the opportunity.
People should have fair access to education. It isn't unfair that some people don't end up getting it.
Is not having lead in your water an opportunity or an outcome? Is not getting "shot while black" an opportunity or an outcome?
I dunno - neither? Doesn't feel apt.
I am not pegging you on either end of the spectrum. What I am challenging you on is the idea that people who come out differently than you are morally inferior or restrictors of opportunity.
I don't think either of those things.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 113 by NoNukes, posted 12-04-2017 12:05 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 118 by NoNukes, posted 12-04-2017 5:55 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 119 of 135 (824889)
12-04-2017 5:58 PM
Reply to: Message 118 by NoNukes
12-04-2017 5:55 PM


Re: What someone gets vs what they earn vs what they are worth
NoNukes writes:
What I am challenging you on is the idea that people who come out differently than you are morally inferior or restrictors of opportunity.
NCI writes:
I don't think either of those things.
You are the one who brought the idea up.
You must've misread me.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 118 by NoNukes, posted 12-04-2017 5:55 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 120 by NoNukes, posted 12-04-2017 9:18 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 121 of 135 (824904)
12-04-2017 10:13 PM
Reply to: Message 120 by NoNukes
12-04-2017 9:18 PM


Re: What someone gets vs what they earn vs what they are worth
NCE writes:
And I'm against a state trying to force fairness in outcome by restricting opportunity.
I'm going to assume that you don't believe anybody is for such a thing given your comments. So why'd you bring that up?
Because I do believe that some people are for such a thing, as I've said:
quote:
It seems to me that the leftists want to force equality of outcome.
I'm not exactly sure how they want to go about this, because I haven't seen anything explicit, but what I've seen implies what I've said.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 120 by NoNukes, posted 12-04-2017 9:18 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 122 by NoNukes, posted 12-05-2017 12:29 AM New Cat's Eye has replied
 Message 128 by RAZD, posted 12-06-2017 2:21 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 123 of 135 (824914)
12-05-2017 9:26 AM
Reply to: Message 122 by NoNukes
12-05-2017 12:29 AM


Re: What someone gets vs what they earn vs what they are worth
Not sure why you bothered to deny thinking that way, only to come back and acknowledge it now.
They're completely different statements:
A state trying to force fairness in outcome by restricting opportunity.
People who come out differently than you are restrictors of opportunity.
I don't know how you can see those as the same thing, nor why you're pushing for it. If you want to know what I think then just ask - there's no reason to try to twist my words into a contradiction.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 122 by NoNukes, posted 12-05-2017 12:29 AM NoNukes has not replied

Replies to this message:
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New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 129 of 135 (825052)
12-06-2017 8:49 PM
Reply to: Message 128 by RAZD
12-06-2017 2:21 PM


Re: Opportunity vs Privilege
Curiously, what I am for is equality of opportunity. Opportunity to education, opportunity for work, that isn't lumbered by institutionalized racism/biases and poverty vs privileges white males enjoy compared to all other workers.
To be clear: Are you saying that both opportunity to education and opportunity for work are being lumbered by both institutionalized racism/biases and poverty vs privileges white males enjoy compared to all other workers? (sorry, there's some punctuation/grammar error there or something)
If so, then okay: what is your solution?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 128 by RAZD, posted 12-06-2017 2:21 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 130 by NoNukes, posted 12-07-2017 1:35 AM New Cat's Eye has seen this message but not replied
 Message 131 by RAZD, posted 12-09-2017 9:05 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 132 of 135 (825236)
12-10-2017 11:03 AM
Reply to: Message 131 by RAZD
12-09-2017 9:05 AM


Re: Opportunity vs Privilege
Tuition free state education. First community college or trade school, followed by higher education for those that want to pursue it. The community college path would mean not needing freshman year at state university. The community colleges would also provide the education needed for technician type occupations. The trade schools would mean a supply of plumbers, electricians, mechanics, etc. and a career path to solid middle class occupations.
I like the idea of a post-highschool but pre-college institution of learning where students can test the waters of various industries.
It seems silly to me for a freshman to spend so many thousands of dollars to go to a college, not knowing what they want to do, and basically going on a test run to see how things go.
That's a risky and expensive gamble. Many people find out it's not for them. You don't have to dive right into the deep end to figure that out.
Also, many of the people that it is actually for end up spending years exploring the options to figure out what they want to end up studying. There's no reason to do that at the top dollar university (other than they would appreciate getting that money).
In principle it sounds like a good idea, but I'm afraid it might be too difficult to get all the different institutions to cooperate. In my experience, the universities would prefer students come take the classes at their schools over accepting transfers of credits from others. I don't see the universities being on board with losing a lot of business to free state schools.
On the other hand, with all the online schooling that happening, maybe the whole university model will become outdated and so they'll end up losing the business anyways. Then it doesn't matter.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 131 by RAZD, posted 12-09-2017 9:05 AM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 133 by RAZD, posted 12-15-2017 11:25 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 134 of 135 (825519)
12-15-2017 3:08 PM
Reply to: Message 133 by RAZD
12-15-2017 11:25 AM


Re: Opportunity vs Privilege
Several people I know have used this path. They get an associate degree and then enter state university with advanced placement. I have not seen any problems getting in, particularly as the universities lose students every year and can use these people to refill the ranks.
Oh, I read "not needing freshman year at state university" as taking some classes but not getting a degree. Transferring individual courses from a college to a university doesn't really work as well as a degree does.
This may work well enough for associate degrees and the like, but I hardly think it is capable of providing the hands-on experience needed for many scientists.
You're right there - you're gonna need access to a laboratory.
I've done correspondance school and found it tedious and slow, so I transfered into a residential program (for my 3rd degree).
I have a buddy getting on online degree that I was helping study - it's getting more sophisticated. And with more credibility.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 133 by RAZD, posted 12-15-2017 11:25 AM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 135 by RAZD, posted 12-16-2017 6:52 AM New Cat's Eye has not replied

  
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