The Tension of Faith

It's amazing how you manage not to understand anything at all on this thread.

What utter and complete nonsense and misrepresentation. Christianity is not being supplanted by paganism and it is only the fringe Christian Cult of Ignorance that has a problem with enforcing equal protection under the law.No one was deprived of the Christian beliefs as nutty as they were. You and others are still free to believe any damn fool thing you want.What you are not free to do is to try to make your nutjob interpretations of God's Law supersede civil law.

Oh but this is a perfect parallel with pagan Rome. My views are quite standard Christian views, no nutjob on my side, though I can't say the same for my opponents. Only a few years ago it would have been unthinkable to put a law favoring a violation of God's marriage ordinance into practice, because we have been a Christian civilization from the beginning. but it's been eroding into paganism for a few decades now. What I said is quite right: Christians who will not honor such a law, today's equivalent to worshipping Caesar, will be thrown to the lions one way or another.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Utter nonsense. Christians who break the law will be treated just like anyone who breaks the law.Sorry but reality says your position is simply not true or factual. Christians have no special privilege to break the law and even Jesus himself pointed that out.Have you ever read the Bible Faith? Are any "Biblical Christians" even capable of honestly reading the Bible?Edited by jar, : you position ---> your position

Certainly, as I said. The only difference is that punishment by lion munching isn't popular here at the moment. Which of course is exactly what I already said, how odd that you would claim I'm wrong since you are saying the same thing. Have you ever read history? Christians had no privilege to break the law in ancient Rome either, same situation. The law required them to worship Caesar and they disobeyed it so the lions got them. YOu really need to follow the argument. Here I am agreeing with you and you sound like you've completely lost all your marbles claiming otherwise. In fact can you read a simple post, let alone the Bible?Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

I'm pointing out that it is not Christians who are the issue. The vast majority of Christians have no issue with same sex marriage, with abortion, with equal rights, with granting equal protection and the right to do process to anyone within the jurisdiction of the United States of America.No one is being told they have to worship Caesar, no one is being fed to the lions, no Christian is being denied the right to hold even stupid beliefs.Christians are not being punished for their beliefs.

Of course the baker is still in business: Masterpiece CakeshopAccording to his donation site, Support Jack Phillips, he did give up baking wedding cakes:

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Four years ago, to avoid violating his conscience without disobeying the State of Colorado's order requiring that he custom design cakes for same-sex weddings, Jack stopped making wedding cakes altogether. As a major source of income for any small cakeshop, the loss of the wedding cake business has cost Jack nearly 40% of his annual revenue.

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So I guess we can ignore the rest of your hyperbole: You continue: No, I think Hyde Park's about right for you, but I suggest you get your facts straight, especially before declaring you "know what's going on." One thing we do know, as well stated by the Washington Post: "When a cake artist opens the doors of his bakery, he commits to serving all customers equally."--Percy

Uh-oh, you're back to one-line responses again, never a good sign for you. One more time, you're not God. You don't make things so just by declaring them so.If you want to show I don't "understand anything at all" then you're going to have to show it through discussion. You're going to have to produce meaningful responses to the evidence that proves you have a hate-filled theology that combines with error-filled contradictory claims. My Message 1258 is still there if you can somehow find the wits to come up with more than a moronic one-line response.--Percy

What is sad about much of Christianity today is that it seems to have totally missed everything Jesus life, according to the stories, was about.He hung out with publicans and prostitutes and sinners.He fed thousands without asking them to believe anything.He made the beer run at the wedding party without ever taking credit for it.He said that we should obey the laws, even if they go against God's laws.The said the it was what we do for others not what we do for Jesus that was important.He said "Don't think you are special because you ain't!"Time and time again, the Bible emphasizes that even just common courtesy is more important than so God's Law!No one is being forced to marry someone of the same sex.No one is being forced to even approve of same sex marriage.No one is being forced to get an abortion.No one is even being forced to approve of an abortion.No one is being forced to change their beliefs in any way.Yet the Christian Cult of Ignorance loves to play at being martyrs.

So that they can claim that prophecy is being fulfilled.I wonder which god is that who is against killing babies. Was it the one that killed every firstborn in Egypt just to prove a point? Or the one that order Joshua’s gang not to leave alive anyone from the cities they were conquering, even children? Of course only young virgins so that the gang could have some sex slaves.

Paboss writes:

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I wonder which god is that who is against killing babies. Was it the one that killed every firstborn in Egypt just to prove a point? Or the one that order Joshua’s gang not to leave alive anyone from the cities they were conquering, even children? Of course only young virgins so that the gang could have some sex slaves.

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Don't forget the one who told Abraham to kill his own son...his own born son.Don't forget the one that made it a law that if a person attacks a woman and causes her to miscarry, he isn't guilty of murder and can only be penalized by a fine.

I am an atheist. I am a "confirmed atheist" because I became an atheist a bit before the traditional age of confirmation -- that is primarily an inside joke of mine.Basically, after I had been baptized around age 11 (prompted by a Billy Graham crusade -- please allow me a moment to hang my head in shame), a year later I decided that I really needed to get serious about this religion stuff, so I started reading the Bible. I erroneously entered into that evolution (Naval terminology) with a nave attitude of biblical literacy. I very quickly realized that I just simply could not believe the really weird stuff I was reading, so, I reasoned (undoubtedly erroneously for my particular denomination which I have never been able to determine) that since I couldn't believe what I was supposed to (in my ignorance of my own denomination's requirements) then it was best that I just leave. So while so many ex-Christian testimonials are so painful, my own was mostly neutral -- oh, I cannot believe this stuff, so I guess I should just leave, right?OK, so how far did I get through Genesis? Genesis 19:30-38 is when Lot's daughters got him drunk and then raped him (and were rewarded by God for it). I would think that my adolescent mind would have remembered that incestuous rape by the daughters.Since then, I have read the entire New Testament all the way through, twice.Both times, the Gospels talked mostly about the teachings of Jesus.Jesus had some good teachings.Post-Gospel, we suddenly had the religion of the Christ. That is when it went really weird.Weird is never good. For anybody.

The situation is somewhat more complex then even your description.First, the four existing Gospels do not present the same story; the unknown author of John is a reaction to Jesus the Messenger and tries to create Jesus the Deity. Paul was an Organizer and he was creating Pauline Christianity. We have glimpses of other competing positions but simply not much original material to work with.But Jesus was never a Christian and the evolution of Christianity continued just as evolution of living things continues.Unfortunately most Christians are never taught anything about the actual formation of Christianity but at most simply given a copy of the Bylaws of their Chapter of Club Christian and they glance at the pictures then put it away.

Nonsense. Nobody's forgotten that, but you imply they didn't have to repent and be saved, and that is false. Nobody has forgotten that. What a silly statement. Oh now that is absolutely false. A total lie. He obeyed God's laws to perfection and He is our model. We cannot "do" anything for Jesus, He came to be a servant to all. Where are you getting this stuff? Why don't you quote scripture? No doubt because you've got it all twisted up. Yes we're all aware of this basic Christian message, nobody has missed it, but where's the quote? Jesus NEVER treats God's Law like this. He said the Law is Holy and that every jot and tittle of it will be fulfilled. What you are calling "common courtesy" may be included in God's Law but since you don't quote and make everything up to suit yourself I have no idea what you are talking about. Ugh what weasel talk. Being forced to make a wedding cake for a gay marriage or have to give up making wedding cakes is government tyranny enough. Make a wedding cake or be ostracized as a "hater" and lose your wedding cake business might not be called "force" in Wonderland I suppose. And Mao would just toss you into prison, so there's that. As for abortions, any sane society should oppose legalized murder of innocents. Right, it's not that the law punishes Christians for being Christians, it's that we imagine it, so if we just ignore it we can pretend it doesn't happen. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

I've already answered this utterly evil post.