The Tension of Faith

Except for those "true Christians" who believe that it is "God's Law" that the races be kept separate and the "inferior races" be subjugated.Oh dear! Two different groups of "true Christians" who disagree on what "God's Law" is and demands. However can we resolve that problem?The Christian way would be for one group to gain enough political power so that they can either subjugate or annihilate the other. Fortunately for us, those "true Christians" do not have such political power in our country ... yet.There is no one single Christian view of "God's Law" and what it is exactly. Like beliefs of what the Bible is and says, it's all just each group projecting their own ideas and prejudices on it. You do not speak for all Christians, nor do they speak for you. Christians, especially the Protestant branches, are a highly fractured and splintered mess of conflicting ideas and proclamations. Even the most extremely fundamentalist sects disagree vehemently with each other and consider each other to be wrong -- do not even begin to think of calling any of them by the name of another of those sects (this from someone I know who is from one of those sects). My ex-wife is now physically incapable of procreation, so she should not be allowed to re-marry should she so choose? I myself would oppose it, but only out of pity for the poor groom.

You don't get to define Christianity and you are wrong about all the differences among us. But what you think is utterly irrelevant. Those of us who understand the Bible RIGHTLY, yes I dare say I know how to judge that, have to refuse anything that would lend validity to gay marriage.Oh now even that absurd canard about situational inability to procreate. Why are you all so STUPID.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Civics has everything to do with it. You expressed severe ignorance of how our government is meant to work. Learning civics would help relieve you of that ignorance. But as usual you refuse to learn. "Christian Reconstructionist" would be a title which I have repeatedly said would not apply, but rather it is the beliefs and ideas, as I have repeatedly said.Don't you remember what you have posted? I do and I am quite certain that many others here do as well. Yes, you did finally back off somewhat, but you were out there advocating for theocracy. And I am not about to waste the time slogging through your compost heap of postings only for you to deny it anyway. You are too far beyond redemption.

Nor do you! Though that does not prevent you from pontificating. Except that we keep seeing those differences playing out all the time and throughout history. Fortunately for now none of your sects has the political power to act on those differences. Yes, it is absurd, but that is the logical conclusion to your premise that marriage is only for procreation. That is the entire idea, to show you how absurd your premise is.There is so much more to marriage than mere procreation. What a pity that "true Christians" adhering to your absurd premise can never know that. Indeed, why are you?

I'm pretty sure what I said about the Supreme Court is true enough but IT DOES NOT MATTER WHERE THE LAW CAME FROM. IT EXISTS AND IT HAS BEEN USED TO DRIVE CHRISTIANS OUT OF BUSINESS, THAT IS WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT.Maybe I tried to defend a theocracy somewhere?> I'm surprised because it would be so unworkable. But it is true I would love to live in a theocracy if it were possible.

"more to marriage than procreation?" I can't believe you'd try that one either. It's fundamental, not exhaustive. WHat IS the matter with your head?

But again Faith, reality says that is simply not true.The law has not driven any Christian out of business.AbE: If Faith and the members of similar Chapters of Club Christian wish to claim some law for causing problems, it is their idea of God's Law that is the bad guy not any civil law. Edited by jar, : see AbE:

the Oregon bskers had to close their doors. They were harassed and their business was vandalized. Their business WAS wedding cakes. No more. Phillips gave up making wedding csakes. Yes they were driven out of the wedding business. Stop lying. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

But it was not the law but their behavior and decision that is the problem. They were perfectly free to continue their business as long as they did not break the law. And let's make this very, very, very clear; it is not a Christian position but rather the position of their Chapter of Club Christian that is the issue.And sorry, but believe it or not bakeries can make more than just wedding cakes. If anything it is simply Philips utter ignorance and lack of humanity that should be faulted.

It is a Christian position, It is a blblical position.There is no such thing as "Club Christian" except in your mind. I don't even know what the term means, except that you hate true Christianity. the people who have been sued under this law are genuine Christians who will not violate God's Law.Of course there's always the solution of giving up the freedom to make wedding cakes. The Oregon bakery was ALL wedding cakes because that was her love.Face it, you're all supporting a travesty of a law that is against Christians. The law is the villain but Christians are being made the villains in the service of legalizing sin yet.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Again Faith, reality simply shows you are once again wrong. I AM a Christian and so do not hate Christianity. There is no such thing as true Christianity except in the minds of bigots.I also understand that there are Christians who do not oppose same sex marriage.I also understand that marriage is a civil contract.I also understand that churches only perform marriage ceremony under license from the State.I understand that since marriage is a civil contract, that only some Christian Churches oppose same sex marriage, that the existence of same-sex marriages have absolutely no effect on anyone else's marriage, the issue is not a matter of God's Law but only the opinions of some Chapters of Club Christian.I understand that no Chapter of Club Christian is being forced to perform same-sex marriage ceremonies and no one Christian or non-Christian is being forced to marry a person of the same sex that the issue is not related to any civil law but only the imaginings of those who wish to whine and play martyr.I also understand they have every right to whine, play martyr and even suffer should that make them happy.

Instead of repeating that utterly false and irrelevant nonsense, all you have to do is admit that biblical Christians must refuse to do anything to legitimize gay marriage because we understand it to violate God's Law, and this means refusing to legitimize it in many ways, such as by performing a service for a gay wedding for instance. It's so simple. Nothing else is relevant. Just concede it and all this silly stuff can stop. These discussions usually end anyway with someone saying "Right and you SHOULD be punished for that." Get it over with already.

quote:

---

I'm talking about the Supreme Court decision to declare gay marriage the law of the land. It was not a decision of Congress but of the activist Supreme Court.

---

They did exactly the same with interracial marriage - an even less popular decision -which too many Christians also felt to be in violation of God’s Law. And aside from your personal beliefs there is very little difference between those decisions.

quote:

---

Really it isn't even legal but it is treated as if it's the law of the land anyway.

---

If you think that then it follows that there is no legal force to the decision legalising interracial marriage either.It’s funnny how you aren’t protesting the earlier decision - even if you agree with the decision itself you must consider it an overreach by an activist Supreme Court - on a matter that you (wrongly) think should have been left to Congress.

quote:

---

I didn't say it was written for this specific purpose, except of course as manipulated by Satan himself.

---

Obviously not.

quote:

---

The law forces Christians when put in certain positions such as being asked to provide services for a gay wedding to violate our Christian conscience if we comply

---

We’ve yet to see any good reason why you can’t. Maybe better education in the Bible would overcome your bigotry, although the men you follow wouldn’t want that.

quote:

---

By defining gay marriage as a civil right the nation has committed a serious violation of common sense as well as God's Law, that was not committed by any nation or tribe on earth until recently

---

I’m going to ask again. Where does the Bible spell out rights and privileges that are to be exclusively reserved to heterosexual couples ? I’m sure it doesn’t mention health insurance specifically, but maybe you can find something close enough. Or maybe inheritance rights?

quote:

---

What do you hope to accomplish by trying to talk us out of something we can't be talked out of?

---

We can certainly make it plain that you have no claim to be really Christian.

quote:

---

What's sad is that there are so many Christians who don't think it's a problem.

---

Of course you don’t like people being Christian. We know that.

Thank you. You are correct, the problem is not the Civil Law, Not God's Law but only the interpretation your Chapters of Cub Christian have created.There is no reason, nor do any of us think you should be punished for your beliefs, but we do understand your beliefs do not allow you to break the law.If you decide that you will break the law then that is your decision but of course law breaking does carry sanctions.The issue is not the Civil Law, not God's Law but only your interpretations.Edited by jar, : appalin spallin nor ---> not

That doesn't align with my actual comments which you failed to quote, so I will. This is from the message you replied to, Message 1312: Mr. Phillips can freely exercise his religious beliefs in his church or his home or the homes of fellow travelers. What he can't do is use his business to discriminate against members of the public. It is obviously untrue that the "Law of God" applies to "every undertaking and every business." The laws of the United States maintain separation between church and state. Church isn't allowed to impose its laws on state.--Percy