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Author Topic:   The "science" of Miracles
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 121 of 696 (825626)
12-16-2017 2:11 PM
Reply to: Message 118 by ringo
12-16-2017 11:32 AM


Re: Definition Of Terms
ringo writes:
You can also apologize for misrepresenting the dictionary. Neither Merriam-Webster nor dictionary.com nor thefreedictionary.com uses the word "impossible".
Breaking the laws of physics=impossible
Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 118 by ringo, posted 12-16-2017 11:32 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 133 by ringo, posted 12-17-2017 1:10 PM Tangle has replied

  
kbertsche
Member (Idle past 2131 days)
Posts: 1427
From: San Jose, CA, USA
Joined: 05-10-2007


Message 122 of 696 (825672)
12-17-2017 8:08 AM
Reply to: Message 85 by jar
12-15-2017 4:37 PM


Re: How can there be such a "science" anyway?
jar writes:
If there are good scholarly reasons to think either ever happened, you can bring them here. But a link certainly won't do it.
I've read Hoffmeier but never found anything, anything at all beyond speculative vague assertions that quite frankly seem unrelated to either the Exodus or the Conquest of Canaan.
Sorry, I don't have his book, so I can't quote from it. But I've heard Hoffmeier speak and present evidence for the likely route of the Exodus. He struck me as a good scholar who had done solid archaeological research.
I'm skeptical that Oxford University Press would have published his book if it were nothing but "speculative vague assertions".
Edited by kbertsche, : No reason given.

"Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." — Albert Einstein
I am very astonished that the scientific picture of the real world around me is very deficient. It gives us a lot of factual information, puts all of our experience in a magnificently consistent order, but it is ghastly silent about all and sundry that is really near to our heart, that really matters to us. It cannot tell us a word about red and blue, bitter and sweet, physical pain and physical delight; it knows nothing of beautiful and ugly, good or bad, God and eternity. Science sometimes pretends to answer questions in these domains, but the answers are very often so silly that we are not inclined to take them seriously. — Erwin Schroedinger

This message is a reply to:
 Message 85 by jar, posted 12-15-2017 4:37 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 123 by jar, posted 12-17-2017 8:57 AM kbertsche has not replied
 Message 124 by PaulK, posted 12-17-2017 9:18 AM kbertsche has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 123 of 696 (825676)
12-17-2017 8:57 AM
Reply to: Message 122 by kbertsche
12-17-2017 8:08 AM


Re: How can there be such a "science" anyway?
Oxford University Press will publish most anything they deem saleable.
But again, read what you write.
kbertsche writes:
But I've heard Hoffmeier speak and present evidence for the likely route of the Exodus.
Note that claiming the Exodus even happened IS a speculative vague assertion as is any possible route they might have taken.
But any route they might have taken would still be through Egypt and areas controlled by Egypt.
The loss of a Pharaoh and army and horses and chariots and armaments and supplies is also something that would not go unnoticed by the other super-powers of the day and yet there is no evidence such an event happened.
The need to replace all the things lost is also something that would not go unnoticed by the other super-powers of the day and yet there is no evidence such an event happened.
All of the super-powers of the period were creating written inventories and commercial transactions at the time yet there is no indication of a transaction "One thousand horses with chariots plus two million sets of armaments to replace items lost on the northern front" or "Oh, and new Pharaoh needed, experience preferred."

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 122 by kbertsche, posted 12-17-2017 8:08 AM kbertsche has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 124 of 696 (825677)
12-17-2017 9:18 AM
Reply to: Message 122 by kbertsche
12-17-2017 8:08 AM


Re: How can there be such a "science" anyway?
From what I’ve seen Hoffmeier relies heavily on speculation, and admits he has no direct evidence.
As expected he draws on evidence of Canaanites in Egypt. But that is well-known and doesn’t even show that Israelites were present in any great numbers.
He uses images of prisoners of war - captured in raids - being made to work. But that doesn’t show that a large local population would be enslaved. The logistics are different.
If he can’t show that the Israelites were present in such numbers, or that they were enslaved or even made a mass exit (in itself noticeably reducing the population of Egypt), it’s hardly significant evidence for the Exodus.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 122 by kbertsche, posted 12-17-2017 8:08 AM kbertsche has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 125 by jar, posted 12-17-2017 9:39 AM PaulK has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 125 of 696 (825678)
12-17-2017 9:39 AM
Reply to: Message 124 by PaulK
12-17-2017 9:18 AM


maybe an even bigger issue related to the story of the Exodus.
Maybe an even bigger issue related to the story of the Exodus is the story itself. It is written and presented in a classic serial folktale style, perfect as a way to extend the stay of the storyteller night after night; to get fed and bed another day; a classic Saturday matinee short before the movie.
It is "So kids, remember last week Pharaoh said he would let the people go. Let's look in and see what's happening this week.
"Not so fast!" said God. "I will change Pharaoh's heart."
So suddenly Pharaoh thought "I know I said all the people could go but for some strange reason I feel a need to change my mind. Run tell Moshe to hold up, he's got some 'splainin to do."
Moshe and his brother Ron and sister Miri knew what had happened. "It was God again, I just know it. He must have yet another magic trick to show us but you know, things like locust and frogs and red water get really old after awhile. Why won't he just accept what the Pharaoh says and we can get on our way?"
Come back next week to find out if Moshe and Ron and Miri get to go Walkabout again and what magic trick will God do now?

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 124 by PaulK, posted 12-17-2017 9:18 AM PaulK has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 126 by Phat, posted 12-17-2017 9:47 AM jar has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 126 of 696 (825679)
12-17-2017 9:47 AM
Reply to: Message 125 by jar
12-17-2017 9:39 AM


Re: maybe an even bigger issue related to the story of the Exodus.
This whole idea that God was just a plot device in a story is...disturbing.
Do we have evidence that todays God is still just a plot device in our lives?
Cant a guy get to actually believe in a Creator of all seen and unseen Who has time to listen? It seems that if what you suggest is true, there really never has been a God apart from what we create. Which throws religion itself on its head.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 125 by jar, posted 12-17-2017 9:39 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 127 by PaulK, posted 12-17-2017 9:53 AM Phat has replied
 Message 130 by jar, posted 12-17-2017 10:24 AM Phat has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 127 of 696 (825681)
12-17-2017 9:53 AM
Reply to: Message 126 by Phat
12-17-2017 9:47 AM


Re: maybe an even bigger issue related to the story of the Exodus.
Myths and legends featuring Gods aren’t exactly uncommon. Why suppose that the Jew’s ancestors didn’t have them ? It shouldn’t be disturbing to conclude that they did.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 126 by Phat, posted 12-17-2017 9:47 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 128 by Phat, posted 12-17-2017 10:06 AM PaulK has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 128 of 696 (825683)
12-17-2017 10:06 AM
Reply to: Message 127 by PaulK
12-17-2017 9:53 AM


Re: maybe an even bigger issue related to the story of the Exodus.
Myths and legends featuring Gods aren’t exactly uncommon. Why suppose that the Jew’s ancestors didn’t have them? It shouldn’t be disturbing to conclude that they did.
Because what disturbs me is that in all of these stories there should also be some glimpse into interaction with the God Who is...the One whom actually exists...the One whom believers believe in. jar seems to be saying that in the final analysis, we all make up the God that we want...and that the GOD Who is never makes an actual appearance in our lives.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 127 by PaulK, posted 12-17-2017 9:53 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 129 by PaulK, posted 12-17-2017 10:12 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 129 of 696 (825684)
12-17-2017 10:12 AM
Reply to: Message 128 by Phat
12-17-2017 10:06 AM


Re: maybe an even bigger issue related to the story of the Exodus.
quote:
Because what disturbs me is that in all of these stories there should also be some glimpse into interaction with the God Who is...the One whom actually exists...the One whom believers believe in.
Should there be ? If it is primarily a story (whether based on real events or not) the story is going to conform to human ideas about God - and what makes a good story. That’s what people do.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 128 by Phat, posted 12-17-2017 10:06 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 130 of 696 (825686)
12-17-2017 10:24 AM
Reply to: Message 126 by Phat
12-17-2017 9:47 AM


Re: maybe an even bigger issue related to the story of the Exodus.
Phat writes:
Cant a guy get to actually believe in a Creator of all seen and unseen Who has time to listen?
Of course they can and have. In fact most of the stories about God regardless of which religion involves a God that interacts with humans. Heracles is a great example of not just a God who had time to listen but for some pillow talk as well. Ganesha is the remover of obstacles. Hermes and Mercury were messengers constantly carrying message between humans and gods. The God of Genesis 2&3 had time to listen and even make clothes.
It's likely the authors of those stories believed very strongly that there were gods who had time to listen.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 126 by Phat, posted 12-17-2017 9:47 AM Phat has not replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


(2)
Message 131 of 696 (825688)
12-17-2017 10:33 AM
Reply to: Message 93 by Tangle
12-15-2017 5:50 PM


Re: Definition Of Terms
I'm saying exactly the reverse. How on earth can you be confused about that? I'm saying that by definition a miracle is inexplicable. It's the paradox that makes it miraculous.
You're also saying that they have to be impossible and also happen, which is contradictory.
So maybe it's me. How can we know that something has defied a natural law without testing that the something has defied a natural law?
You can't. And if a natural law is defied then it wasn't a law.
We measure the outcome, we can't measure the mechanism because it's supernatural.
Which means you can't test and prove it. And if you could then it isn't miraculous.
You're just saying that miracles are impossible again.
I'm saying it is impossible to know it was a miracle.
The term "miracle" is a place holder.
Look at the definitions - it's things that are "taken to be", or "held to be", or "ascribed to be" supernatural. Never are miracles concluded to be supernatural - that's impossible.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by Tangle, posted 12-15-2017 5:50 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 132 by Tangle, posted 12-17-2017 12:08 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 132 of 696 (825695)
12-17-2017 12:08 PM
Reply to: Message 131 by New Cat's Eye
12-17-2017 10:33 AM


Re: Definition Of Terms
NCE writes:
I'm saying it is impossible to know it was a miracle.
Yes I know. I know because you've asserted it a couple of dozen times now. It's still as wrong as the first time you said it.
If a priest said 'fly up to heaven' and the Firth of Forth Bridge sprouted two thousand foot wings and flew off into the sunset, scatterring trains, cars and people on its way, whilst whistelling Halleluya you'd still be shaking your head saying, 'no miracle, no sir.'

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 131 by New Cat's Eye, posted 12-17-2017 10:33 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 134 by ringo, posted 12-17-2017 1:18 PM Tangle has replied
 Message 138 by New Cat's Eye, posted 12-17-2017 1:32 PM Tangle has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 133 of 696 (825709)
12-17-2017 1:10 PM
Reply to: Message 121 by Tangle
12-16-2017 2:11 PM


Re: Definition Of Terms
Tangle writes:
Breaking the laws of physics=impossible
The dictionaries don't talk about "breaking the laws of physics" either. They describe miracles as seeming to be inexplicable by our current understanding of the laws of nature.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 121 by Tangle, posted 12-16-2017 2:11 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 135 by Faith, posted 12-17-2017 1:19 PM ringo has replied
 Message 141 by Tangle, posted 12-17-2017 1:48 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 134 of 696 (825710)
12-17-2017 1:18 PM
Reply to: Message 132 by Tangle
12-17-2017 12:08 PM


Re: Definition Of Terms
Tangle writes:
If a priest said 'fly up to heaven' and the Firth of Forth Bridge sprouted two thousand foot wings and flew off into the sunset, scatterring trains, cars and people on its way, whilst whistelling Halleluya you'd still be shaking your head saying, 'no miracle, no sir.'
I'd be asking the priest how he did it. And I'd be examining the YouTube videos for clues. Have you heard of the Scientific Method at all?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 132 by Tangle, posted 12-17-2017 12:08 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 143 by Tangle, posted 12-17-2017 2:02 PM ringo has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 135 of 696 (825711)
12-17-2017 1:19 PM
Reply to: Message 133 by ringo
12-17-2017 1:10 PM


Re: Definition Of Terms
The dictionaries don't talk about "breaking the laws of physics" either. They describe miracles as seeming to be inexplicable by our current understanding of the laws of nature.
Ha ha. Couldn't be because there is an omnipotent intelligence who created the physical universe and can use it however He wants.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 133 by ringo, posted 12-17-2017 1:10 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 136 by jar, posted 12-17-2017 1:21 PM Faith has replied
 Message 139 by ringo, posted 12-17-2017 1:32 PM Faith has replied

  
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