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Author Topic:   The "science" of Miracles
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 136 of 696 (825712)
12-17-2017 1:21 PM
Reply to: Message 135 by Faith
12-17-2017 1:19 PM


Re: Definition Of Terms
Faith writes:
Couldn't be because there is an omnipotent intelligence who created the physical universe and can use it however He wants.
It could be but so far there has never been any evidence that He exists or can do anything or is very intelligent.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 135 by Faith, posted 12-17-2017 1:19 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 137 by Faith, posted 12-17-2017 1:25 PM jar has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 137 of 696 (825714)
12-17-2017 1:25 PM
Reply to: Message 136 by jar
12-17-2017 1:21 PM


Re: Definition Of Terms
You talk like that and pretend to be a Christian. Yuck.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 136 by jar, posted 12-17-2017 1:21 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 140 by jar, posted 12-17-2017 1:37 PM Faith has not replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 138 of 696 (825719)
12-17-2017 1:32 PM
Reply to: Message 132 by Tangle
12-17-2017 12:08 PM


Re: Definition Of Terms
No, I would say that is a miracle. It just wouldn't be scientific. And I wouldn't know it. But I'd believe it.
If, otoh, we could repeat it and test it scientifically, then I would conclude that we were studying some kind of natural phenomenon.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 132 by Tangle, posted 12-17-2017 12:08 PM Tangle has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 139 of 696 (825720)
12-17-2017 1:32 PM
Reply to: Message 135 by Faith
12-17-2017 1:19 PM


Re: Definition Of Terms
Faith writes:
Couldn't be because there is an omnipotent intelligence who created the physical universe and can use it however He wants.
You're a fine one to talk. You deny that the Flood was a miracle, don't you? You're the biggest miracle-denier on EvC.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 135 by Faith, posted 12-17-2017 1:19 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 146 by Faith, posted 12-17-2017 2:15 PM ringo has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 140 of 696 (825723)
12-17-2017 1:37 PM
Reply to: Message 137 by Faith
12-17-2017 1:25 PM


Re: Definition Of Terms
Faith writes:
You talk like that and pretend to be a Christian. Yuck.
I don't pretend to be a Christian Faith, I am a Christian.
Once again reality shows you are simply wrong.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 137 by Faith, posted 12-17-2017 1:25 PM Faith has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 141 of 696 (825725)
12-17-2017 1:48 PM
Reply to: Message 133 by ringo
12-17-2017 1:10 PM


Re: Definition Of Terms
ringo writes:
The dictionaries don't talk about "breaking the laws of physics" either. They describe miracles as seeming to be inexplicable by our current understanding of the laws of nature.
quote:
An event that appears inexplicable by the laws of nature and so is held to be supernatural in origin or an act of God.
quote:
an extraordinary and welcome event that is not explicable by natural or scientific laws and is therefore attributed to a divine agency.
quote:
an extraordinary event manifesting divine intervention in human affairs
quote:
A miracle is a wonderful and surprising event that is believed to be caused by God.
quote:
Ecclesiastical Terms) an event that is contrary to the established laws of nature and attributed to a supernatural cause
Etc etc

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 133 by ringo, posted 12-17-2017 1:10 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 142 by ringo, posted 12-17-2017 1:53 PM Tangle has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 142 of 696 (825727)
12-17-2017 1:53 PM
Reply to: Message 141 by Tangle
12-17-2017 1:48 PM


Re: Definition Of Terms
Your quotes confirm what I said: "appears inexplicable", ""attributed to a divine agency", "believed to be caused by God", etc. No mention at all of impossibility, just unfounded assumptions.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 141 by Tangle, posted 12-17-2017 1:48 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 147 by Tangle, posted 12-17-2017 2:17 PM ringo has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 143 of 696 (825730)
12-17-2017 2:02 PM
Reply to: Message 134 by ringo
12-17-2017 1:18 PM


Re: Definition Of Terms
ringo writes:
I'd be asking the priest how he did it.
He says that he just asked god to do it and he's as surprised as you are.
And I'd be examining the YouTube videos for clues.
There are 500 videos from multiple angles and several thousand eye witnesses all showing and telling the same thing. The RAF was scrambled and followed the bridge until it left the earth's atmosphere. They have photographs of laughing cherubs frolicking on the bridge and a man in a beard is looking on from a cloud.
Have you heard of the Scientific Method at all?
What more scientific evidence do you require? I can give you anyting you ask for - what will it take?
Or is it that once again all you're saying is that you believe that miracles are impossible?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 134 by ringo, posted 12-17-2017 1:18 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 144 by ringo, posted 12-17-2017 2:08 PM Tangle has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 144 of 696 (825732)
12-17-2017 2:08 PM
Reply to: Message 143 by Tangle
12-17-2017 2:02 PM


Re: Definition Of Terms
Tangle writes:
What more scientific evidence do you require? I can give you anyting you ask for - what will it take?
We need something to tie the cherubs and the bearded man to reality. Suggest a series of experiments.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 143 by Tangle, posted 12-17-2017 2:02 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 145 by Phat, posted 12-17-2017 2:12 PM ringo has replied
 Message 150 by Tangle, posted 12-17-2017 2:28 PM ringo has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 145 of 696 (825733)
12-17-2017 2:12 PM
Reply to: Message 144 by ringo
12-17-2017 2:08 PM


Re: Definition Of Terms
The problem is if we limit reality to things we can explain or describe. Reality may well extend beyond our ability to define.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 144 by ringo, posted 12-17-2017 2:08 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 148 by ringo, posted 12-17-2017 2:22 PM Phat has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 146 of 696 (825734)
12-17-2017 2:15 PM
Reply to: Message 139 by ringo
12-17-2017 1:32 PM


Re: Definition Of Terms
Is there some reason the Flood has to be a miracle? Seems to me it left clear physical evidence and creationists don't treat it as a miracle, they try to explain it by physical events.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 139 by ringo, posted 12-17-2017 1:32 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 151 by ringo, posted 12-17-2017 2:30 PM Faith has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 147 of 696 (825735)
12-17-2017 2:17 PM
Reply to: Message 142 by ringo
12-17-2017 1:53 PM


Re: Definition Of Terms
ringo writes:
No mention at all of impossibility
breaking natural/scientific laws=impossible
quote:
An event that appears inexplicable by the laws of nature and so is held to be supernatural in origin or an act of God.
an extraordinary and welcome event that is not explicable by natural or scientific laws and is therefore attributed to a divine agency.
Etc

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 142 by ringo, posted 12-17-2017 1:53 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 157 by ringo, posted 12-18-2017 10:43 AM Tangle has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 148 of 696 (825737)
12-17-2017 2:22 PM
Reply to: Message 145 by Phat
12-17-2017 2:12 PM


Re: Definition Of Terms
Phat writes:
The problem is if we limit reality to things we can explain or describe. Reality may well extend beyond our ability to define.
No doubt reality does extend beyond our current ability to define it. That's why there are still unanswered questions. But we did figure out flashlights eventually. Is there any reason to think there is something we can never figure out?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 145 by Phat, posted 12-17-2017 2:12 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 149 by Phat, posted 12-17-2017 2:24 PM ringo has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 149 of 696 (825738)
12-17-2017 2:24 PM
Reply to: Message 148 by ringo
12-17-2017 2:22 PM


Re: Definition Of Terms
Is there any reason to think there is something we can never figure out?
Yes. For one thing, we are limited creatures. There is surely more than one thing that we may never figure out.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 148 by ringo, posted 12-17-2017 2:22 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 165 by ringo, posted 12-18-2017 11:00 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 150 of 696 (825740)
12-17-2017 2:28 PM
Reply to: Message 144 by ringo
12-17-2017 2:08 PM


Re: Definition Of Terms
ringo writes:
We need something to tie the cherubs and the bearded man to reality. Suggest a series of experiments.
We ask the priest to do it again with London bridge. This time the scientist have every bit of equipment imaginable. It all checks out. They capture a cherub. It's tricky because basically he can go anywhere he wants anytime he likes, but he decides to stick around and be tested. He's definitely not natural and he tells you in ancient hebrew that he works from the god of Abraham and takes a team from NASA to check out the Pearly Gates.
Need anything else?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 144 by ringo, posted 12-17-2017 2:08 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 152 by ringo, posted 12-17-2017 2:36 PM Tangle has replied

  
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