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Author | Topic: The "science" of Miracles | |||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 439 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Faith writes:
You're wrong. It didn't leave the evidence that it should have. All of the available evidence shows that the Flood didn't happen.
Is there some reason the Flood has to be a miracle? Seems to me it left clear physical evidence... Faith writes:
Answers In Genesis says:
... creationists don't treat it as a miracle...quote:Is it still fun being wrong ALL of the time, or do you ever get tired of it? Faith writes:
And fail dismally.
... they try to explain it by physical events.
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ringo Member (Idle past 439 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Tangle writes:
Exactly how does it "check out"? How tall is the bearded man? What do the MRI scans indicate? Is he human? Alien? Same for the cherub: Did you do a polygraph on him? How far is it to the Pearly Gates? What are their orbital characteristics?
We ask the priest to do it again with London bridge. This time the scientist have every bit of equipment imaginable. It all checks out.
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Phat Member Posts: 18338 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
One reason that you never became a believer is that you insist on making GOD a subset of human wisdom and understanding rather than something beyond our understanding. It allows you to maintain an illusion of control over your own fate.
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith
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ringo Member (Idle past 439 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
Stop and think about that. How can we understand anything that's beyond our understanding?
One reason that you never became a believer is that you insist on making GOD a subset of human wisdom and understanding rather than something beyond our understanding. Phat writes:
On the contrary, as I've told you many times, I often wish that I didn't have to take responsibility for my own fate.
It allows you to maintain an illusion of control over your own fate.
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Phat Member Posts: 18338 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
How can we understand anything that's beyond our understanding? We can't. But we can believe. Some are just afraid of the implications. Others trust the presumption.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith
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Tangle Member Posts: 9510 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
Ringo writes: Exactly how does it "check out"? How tall is the bearded man? What do the MRI scans indicate? Is he human? Alien? Same for the cherub: Did you do a polygraph on him? How far is it to the Pearly Gates? What are their orbital characteristics? I can provide you with every possible piece of information you ask for, god and his minions are co-operating fully. Just ask and you get the answer. You're free to test anything with anything. Satisfied? Or have you, in fact, found yourself arguing non-scientifically like a creationist demananding the absolute proof that you can't actually define and believe can't exist.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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ringo Member (Idle past 439 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Tangle writes:
You keep leaving out important words in the definitions that you quote. "An event that APPEARS inexplicable by the laws of nature", not IS inexplicable by the laws of nature - "is HELD to be supernatural", not IS supernatural. "ATTRIBUTED to a divine agency", not "CAUSED by a divine agency". breaking natural/scientific laws=impossible A miracle is an extraordinary event that is ATTRIBUTED to a supernatural power. It is possible that every single attribution is wrong but that isn't the issue. Events are ATTRIBUTED to a supernatural power because somebody THINKS it's breaking natural/scientific laws, not because it is. An obvious example is an image of Jesus on a piece of toast. Some people THINK it's impossible for it to happen naturally, so they call it a miracle. Others call it pareidolia.
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ringo Member (Idle past 439 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
I can keep correcting you as often as you keep being wrong about it. No. I WISH the implications were true. Unfortunately, there's no reason to think they are.
Some are just afraid of the implications.
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Phat Member Posts: 18338 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
ringo writes: There is no reason for you to think that they are, perhaps. You cant define everyone's reason, however. I WISH the implications were true. Unfortunately, there's no reason to think they are.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith
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ringo Member (Idle past 439 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Tangle writes:
I'm not demanding absolute proof. On the contrary, I'm asking for the evidence that any science-minded person would ask for. You claim to have provided it, just like Faith claims to have provided evidence for the Flood but you don't seem to understand that every "answer" produces more questions. You don't get to stop and say, "This is The Answer™." You can't just insert God here.
Or have you, in fact, found yourself arguing non-scientifically like a creationist demananding the absolute proof that you can't actually define and believe can't exist.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9510 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
You can dick around as long as you like with definitions, semantics and avoidance tactics but we both know that to be a miracle supernatual intervention is necessary and that breaks the laws of nature.
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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ringo Member (Idle past 439 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
I'm not. You admit yourself that you don't have a reason, that it's just a belief. I'm saying that there's no reason to think YOUR belief is "more correct" than somebody else's.
There is no reason for you to think that they are, perhaps. You cant define everyone's reason, however.
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Phat Member Posts: 18338 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Oh ok..
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith
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ringo Member (Idle past 439 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Tangle writes:
You're the only one in the thread who doesn't seem to understand the definition. Once again, a "miracle" is an extraordinary event that is ATTRIBUTED to supernatural intervention. Somebody THINKS it breaks the laws of nature. For something to be CALLED a "miracle", all that is necessary is ignorance of the cause.
You can dick around as long as you like with definitions, semantics and avoidance tactics but we both know that to be a miracle supernatual intervention is necessary and that breaks the laws of nature.
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ringo Member (Idle past 439 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
Maybe there is. But how do we know which things we can't figure out unless we try to figure them out?
There is surely more than one thing that we may never figure out.
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