Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
4 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,807 Year: 3,064/9,624 Month: 909/1,588 Week: 92/223 Day: 3/17 Hour: 1/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   The "science" of Miracles
Percy
Member
Posts: 22388
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 166 of 696 (825843)
12-18-2017 11:22 AM
Reply to: Message 164 by ringo
12-18-2017 10:56 AM


Re: Definition Of Terms
ringo writes:
You're the only one in the thread who doesn't seem to understand the definition. Once again, a "miracle" is an extraordinary event that is ATTRIBUTED to supernatural intervention. Somebody THINKS it breaks the laws of nature. For something to be CALLED a "miracle", all that is necessary is ignorance of the cause.
I just want to say again (last time I replied to Tangle) that I am still fascinated with this discussion, that I'm just looking for a point to jump in. I don't think it's time yet, but I do want to say that Tangle isn't the "only one in the thread who doesn't seem to understand the definition." For example, I'm having difficulty with the distinction between "is a supernatural intervention" and "is ATTRIBUTED to a supernatural intervention." and sometimes I'm not sure you guys are even talking about the same things, for instance where you say that all that is necessary for "something to be CALLED a 'miracle'" is "ignorance of the cause," which doesn't sound like much of a miracle.
I don't understand how someone just seeing something, like the Virgin Mary, could call it a miracle with any kind of assurance or confidence. If Pike's Peak suddenly moved from Colorado to Kansas, that's something that anyone could judge a miracle just by looking at it, but what is usually deemed a miracle is either an unexplained recovery from illness or something seen, and we know how bad eyewitness testimony is.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 164 by ringo, posted 12-18-2017 10:56 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 167 by ringo, posted 12-18-2017 11:33 AM Percy has replied
 Message 171 by Faith, posted 12-18-2017 1:11 PM Percy has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 167 of 696 (825845)
12-18-2017 11:33 AM
Reply to: Message 166 by Percy
12-18-2017 11:22 AM


Re: Definition Of Terms
Percy writes:
I'm having difficulty with the distinction between "is a supernatural intervention" and "is ATTRIBUTED to a supernatural intervention."
It's the same as the distinction between "the Pentateuch was written by Moses" and "The Pentateuch is ATTERIBUTED to Moses."
It's the same as the distinction between "Christmas gifts are brought by Santa" and "Christmas gifts are ATTERIBUTED to Santa."
Percy writes:
... for instance where you say that all that is necessary for "something to be CALLED a 'miracle'" is "ignorance of the cause," which doesn't sound like much of a miracle.
A flashlight is a miracle to people who don't know how it works.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 166 by Percy, posted 12-18-2017 11:22 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 172 by Percy, posted 12-18-2017 2:33 PM ringo has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 168 of 696 (825851)
12-18-2017 12:10 PM
Reply to: Message 164 by ringo
12-18-2017 10:56 AM


Re: Definition Of Terms
ringo writes:
You're the only one in the thread who doesn't seem to understand the definition. Once again, a "miracle" is an extraordinary event that is ATTRIBUTED to supernatural intervention. Somebody THINKS it breaks the laws of nature. For something to be CALLED a "miracle", all that is necessary is ignorance of the cause.
You've plucked a definition that includes the word 'attributed' and latched onto it like a dying man. We both know that we're talking about supernatural intervention - if it's not supernatural intervention or you just think it is, it's not what we're discussing.
This is what the entire world thinks is a miracle and what I'm talking about.
quote:
an extraordinary event manifesting divine intervention in human affairs eg the healing miracles described in the Gospels

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 164 by ringo, posted 12-18-2017 10:56 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 169 by ringo, posted 12-18-2017 12:20 PM Tangle has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 169 of 696 (825854)
12-18-2017 12:20 PM
Reply to: Message 168 by Tangle
12-18-2017 12:10 PM


Re: Definition Of Terms
Tangle writes:
You've plucked a definition that includes the word 'attributed' and latched onto it like a dying man.
The word appeared in your definition too. It may be "ascribed" or "deemed" in some definitions but it isn't hard to find.
Edited by ringo, : Fixed quote.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 168 by Tangle, posted 12-18-2017 12:10 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 170 by Tangle, posted 12-18-2017 12:43 PM ringo has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 170 of 696 (825855)
12-18-2017 12:43 PM
Reply to: Message 169 by ringo
12-18-2017 12:20 PM


Re: Definition Of Terms
ringo writes:
The word appeared in your definition too. It may be "ascribed" or "deemed" in some definitions but it isn't hard to find.
You're still grasping at definitional straws. We all know what a miracle is, it's a supernatural intervention, it breaks natural/scientific laws.
Now perhaps you'll deal with flying brigdes and moving mountains.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 169 by ringo, posted 12-18-2017 12:20 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 193 by ringo, posted 12-19-2017 10:42 AM Tangle has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 171 of 696 (825860)
12-18-2017 1:11 PM
Reply to: Message 166 by Percy
12-18-2017 11:22 AM


Re: Definition Of Terms
I don't understand how someone just seeing something, like the Virgin Mary, could call it a miracle with any kind of assurance or confidence. ...
What if three children claimed to see her? What if a whole crowd then gathered and also saw her? What if she was heard to speak to them about world politics?
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 166 by Percy, posted 12-18-2017 11:22 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 173 by Percy, posted 12-18-2017 2:36 PM Faith has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22388
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 172 of 696 (825865)
12-18-2017 2:33 PM
Reply to: Message 167 by ringo
12-18-2017 11:33 AM


Re: Definition Of Terms
ringo writes:
Percy writes:
I'm having difficulty with the distinction between "is a supernatural intervention" and "is ATTRIBUTED to a supernatural intervention."
It's the same as the distinction between "the Pentateuch was written by Moses" and "The Pentateuch is ATTRIBUTED to Moses."
It's the same as the distinction between "Christmas gifts are brought by Santa" and "Christmas gifts are ATTRIBUTED to Santa."
It's not the English that I'm having a problem with, but the reason behind drawing the distinction when you're talking about the supernatural. I can see now by what you say next that it's just another way for you to say, in essence, "We might *think* it's supernatural, but it's not, it's just something we don't understand yet."
A flashlight is a miracle to people who don't know how it works.
Perhaps you and Tangle are interested in talking about two different things. You want to treat miracles as natural phenomena that we don't understand yet. Tangle wants to talk about real miracles, like what Faith considers a miracle.
If that's correct then somebody's got to make a move. One of you will have to say, "Well, I don't agree with the way you're approaching this, but for the sake of discussion let me follow along with you for a ways." I think you both agree that miracles aren't real. But your position refuses to consider the concept of a true miracle, and so would only result in a discussion of how science expands our knowledge. Tangle accepts the concept (but not the reality) of a true miracle, thinks he knows how to define it ("breaks the laws of nature"), and wants to discuss why miracles aren't real from a scientific perspective, which seems much more appropriate for this thread.
Sorry if I've got this all wrong. If I get feedback I'll take another swing at it.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 167 by ringo, posted 12-18-2017 11:33 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 176 by Tangle, posted 12-18-2017 3:47 PM Percy has replied
 Message 194 by ringo, posted 12-19-2017 10:48 AM Percy has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22388
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 173 of 696 (825866)
12-18-2017 2:36 PM
Reply to: Message 171 by Faith
12-18-2017 1:11 PM


Re: Definition Of Terms
Faith writes:
What if three children claimed to see her [the Virgin Mary]? What if a whole crowd then gathered and also saw her?
Did anyone in the crowd think to pull out their cell phone and record a video?
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 171 by Faith, posted 12-18-2017 1:11 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 174 by Faith, posted 12-18-2017 2:42 PM Percy has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 174 of 696 (825868)
12-18-2017 2:42 PM
Reply to: Message 173 by Percy
12-18-2017 2:36 PM


Re: Definition Of Terms
I think the last apparition preceded cell phones, but I also think apparitions can't be photographed. In fact I think they can only be seen with the "spiritual eye," or the "third eye" and I think this because one film I watched of the children looking at "Mary" showed them walking backwards with their eyes rolled back in their heads the way many Hindu gurus are often depicted. I think it is how you look when you are looking through the "third eye" which is supposedly located in the forehead. You get to see demons that way. I've never wanted to see demons, the idea creeps me out, and the experience I did have was not something I sought. But if you would like to test the idea I think if you meditated quietly on the idea and and concentrated very hard and rolled your eyes back in your head maybe you could do it.
abe: Seeing apparitions and other demonic miracles is what I've been calling petty or second rate miracles. God's miracles occur in real physical space and can be seen by the naked eye. So can some demonic miracles though, such as bleeding statues; they're just not on a par with God's miracles as to meaning or presentation.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 173 by Percy, posted 12-18-2017 2:36 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 175 by NoNukes, posted 12-18-2017 3:14 PM Faith has replied
 Message 184 by Percy, posted 12-18-2017 5:45 PM Faith has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 175 of 696 (825873)
12-18-2017 3:14 PM
Reply to: Message 174 by Faith
12-18-2017 2:42 PM


Re: Definition Of Terms
Faith writes:
" and I think this because one film I watched of the children looking at "Mary" showed them walking backwards with their eyes rolled back in their heads the way many Hindu gurus are often depicted.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I was thinking as long as I have my hands up they’re not going to shoot me. This is what I’m thinking they’re not going to shoot me. Wow, was I wrong. -- Charles Kinsey
We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.
Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith
I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 174 by Faith, posted 12-18-2017 2:42 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 187 by Faith, posted 12-18-2017 6:26 PM NoNukes has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 176 of 696 (825875)
12-18-2017 3:47 PM
Reply to: Message 172 by Percy
12-18-2017 2:33 PM


Re: Definition Of Terms
Percy writes:
Tangle accepts the concept (but not the reality) of a true miracle, thinks he knows how to define it ("breaks the laws of nature"), and wants to discuss why miracles aren't real from a scientific perspective, which seems much more appropriate for this thread.
Nearly. I'm saying that we know what a miracle is, or would be - equivocation apart - and should one occur in a way we can test to destruction, science would be forced to accept it.
I'm trying to get beyond the silly definitional tactics to the scientific one - what kind of evidence would it take for science to throw its hands in the air and say ok, not only is this unexplained but it's also inexplicable? Why would the miraculous be non-susceptible to scientific enquiry?
Excuses and semantics don't work, we've got detailed and specific evidence of god moving a bridge in a way that defies all our knowledge. It's testable, repeatable and confirmed by many methods. It's as solid as the ToE, more so in fact because it's all happening real time under scientific conditions.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 172 by Percy, posted 12-18-2017 2:33 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 177 by Phat, posted 12-18-2017 4:53 PM Tangle has replied
 Message 178 by jar, posted 12-18-2017 4:56 PM Tangle has replied
 Message 185 by Percy, posted 12-18-2017 5:55 PM Tangle has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


(1)
Message 177 of 696 (825876)
12-18-2017 4:53 PM
Reply to: Message 176 by Tangle
12-18-2017 3:47 PM


Re: Definition Of Terms
we've got detailed and specific evidence of god moving a bridge in a way that defies all our knowledge. It's testable, repeatable and confirmed by many methods. It's as solid as the ToE, more so in fact because it's all happening real time under scientific conditions....
But wait. This example is hypothetical, right? We dont actually yet have any examples with the criteria that you mention...

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 176 by Tangle, posted 12-18-2017 3:47 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 179 by Tangle, posted 12-18-2017 5:00 PM Phat has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 178 of 696 (825877)
12-18-2017 4:56 PM
Reply to: Message 176 by Tangle
12-18-2017 3:47 PM


Re: Definition Of Terms
Tangle writes:
I'm trying to get beyond the silly definitional tactics to the scientific one - what kind of evidence would it take for science to throw its hands in the air and say ok, not only is this unexplained but it's also inexplicable?
I cannot think of any such possible evidence.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 176 by Tangle, posted 12-18-2017 3:47 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 180 by Tangle, posted 12-18-2017 5:06 PM jar has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 179 of 696 (825878)
12-18-2017 5:00 PM
Reply to: Message 177 by Phat
12-18-2017 4:53 PM


Re: Definition Of Terms
Phat writes:
But wait. This example is hypothetical, right? We dont actually yet have any examples with the criteria that you mention...
Yes Phat, miracles are hypothetical :-)

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 177 by Phat, posted 12-18-2017 4:53 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 213 by Phat, posted 12-20-2017 9:01 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 180 of 696 (825879)
12-18-2017 5:06 PM
Reply to: Message 178 by jar
12-18-2017 4:56 PM


Re: Definition Of Terms
Jar writes:
I cannot think of any such possible evidence.
I've given you access to anything you could unreasonably need. What's you're problem?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 178 by jar, posted 12-18-2017 4:56 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 181 by jar, posted 12-18-2017 5:07 PM Tangle has replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024