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Author Topic:   Modern Democratic Socialized Capitalism is not Evil
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 1 of 43 (824699)
12-02-2017 2:06 PM


First we start with these basic definitions:
Sections underlined and in italics are for emphasis.
quote:
Communism ... is the philosophical, social, political and economic ideology and movement whose ultimate goal is the establishment of the communist society, which is a socioeconomic order structured upon the common ownership of the means of production and the absence of social classes, money[3][4] and the state.[5][6]
The only working version of communism I am aware of were the Israeli Kubbutzes (traditionally collective communities in Israel that were based on agriculture).
So far, I know of no nation where the means of production were actually owned in common. What we have in so-called communist countries are oligarchies:
quote:
Oligarchy ... is a form of power structure in which power rests with a small number of people. These people might be distinguished by nobility, wealth, family ties, education or corporate, religious or military control. Such states are often controlled by families who typically pass their influence from one generation to the next, but inheritance is not a necessary condition for the application of this term.
Throughout history, oligarchies have often been tyrannical, relying on public obedience or oppression to exist. Aristotle pioneered the use of the term as a synonym for rule by the rich,[4] for which another term commonly used today is plutocracy.
Oligarchies are not limited to "communist" countries, but to kingdoms and other totalitarian tyrannical governments. (Iran, Libya, Syria, N Korea, etc).
What is evil is the totalitarian tyrannical governments and the oppression of the people.
Thus the common (ignorant) fear of communism is more appropriately directed at oligarchies. Especially here in the US where large corporations are taking over government.
quote:
Socialism is a range of economic and social systems characterised by social ownership and democratic control of the means of production,[10] as well as the political theories and movements associated with them.[11] Social ownership may refer to forms of public, collective or cooperative ownership, or to citizen ownership of equity.[12] There are many varieties of socialism and there is no single definition encapsulating all of them,[13] though social ownership is the common element shared by its various forms.[5][14][15]
While no nation I know of is purely socialist in economic structure, there are a number of nations that have various levels of public ownership of things plus various levels of collective or cooperative ownership and some citizen owned equity.
This applies to the US, Britain, France, Norway, Sweden, etc
Public ownership generally applies to things for the general public welfare (healthcare, utilities, roads, police protection, fire protection, national protection, etc.).
Collective or cooperative or citizen ownership applies to those corporations or institutions (worker owned cooperatives, for example) that operate democratically for public good or for profit, or both (charities?).
In practice all countries with socialist institutions operate economically with capitalistic systems.
What distinguishes socialism from communism then is:
  1. compatible with democratic government
  2. democratic control of production
  3. several varieties of ownership, public, collective and private
  4. compatible with capitalistic systems
Thus you can have democratic, socialized capitalistic countries (US, Britain, France, Norway, Sweden, etc)
quote:
Capitalism is an economic system and an ideology based on private ownership of the means of production and their operation for profit.[1][2][3] Characteristics central to capitalism include private property, capital accumulation, wage labor, voluntary exchange, a price system and competitive markets.[4][5] In a capitalist market economy, decision-making and investment are determined by the owners of the means of production in financial and capital markets, whereas prices and the distribution of goods are mainly determined by competition in the market.[6][7]
In pure capitalistic systems, corporations are oligarchies (power rests with a small number of people) and only the owners get rich (ie becomes plutocracy). The more the economic system reflects pure capitalism the larger the income gap gets between the owners and the workers, because the owners make the decisions on the operation of the companies.
The US is NOT a socialist country, in spite of having many socialist institutions, because not all means of production are democratically controlled collective corporations. It IS a socialized, democratic, capitalist country with many oligarchic corporations. There are many countries that are more socialized than the US, but few that are as dominated by oligarchic corporations.
Final definition:
quote:
sociopath
noun, Psychiatry.
1. a person with a psychopathic personality whose behavior is antisocial, often criminal, and who lacks a sense of moral responsibility or social conscience.
This applies to corporations (which the republicans claim are people), especially large corporations, and is the ultimate result of pure capitalism as the motive is operation for profit not for people.
The evil of oligarchies and the totalitarian tyrannical control by sociopath management is an inevitable end result of pure capitalism.
Just as socialized people are better members of society than sociopaths, socialized capitalism - with democratically controlled management - is better than sociopath oligarchies.
It may be possible to reign in sociopath oligarchies with taxation systems that then direct the tax money to the benefit of the people and alleviate the worst effects of sociopathic oligarchy management, but experience shows it is temporary at best.
It is time for corporations to become democratically operated institutions.
Enjoy
Edited by RAZD, : .
Edited by RAZD, : ..

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Replies to this message:
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 4 of 43 (824706)
12-02-2017 2:46 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by Phat
12-02-2017 2:23 PM


Re: Common Ownership
So far, I know of no nation where the means of production were actually owned in common.
I don't see how this would ever be possible. Humans by nature would never be content to be equal to their neighbor and with no desire to ever get ahead. ...
I agree, hence communism is a dead issue.
... Oligharcies exist and have existed because of this fact about human nature. We are a competitive lot.
But this is not the only alternative. In governments we have democracies and oligarchies, and by and large people fare better under democracies.
The same holds for corporations -- they can be oligarchies or democracies, and there are many examples of democratically controlled corporations that compete in the marketplace with the oligarchic corporations.
quote:
A cooperative (also known as co-operative, co-op, or coop) is "an autonomous association of persons united voluntarily to meet their common economic, social, and cultural needs and aspirations through a jointly-owned and democratically-controlled enterprise".[1]
Research published by the Worldwatch Institute found that in 2012 approximately one billion people in 96 countries had become members of at least one cooperative.[2] The turnover of the largest three hundred cooperatives in the world reached $2.2 trillion — which, if they were to be a country, it would make them the seventh largest.[3][need quotation to verify]
One dictionary defines a cooperative as "a jointly owned enterprise engaging in the production or distribution of goods or the supplying of services, operated by its members for their mutual benefit, typically organized by consumers or farmers".[4] Cooperative businesses are typically more economically resilient than many other forms of enterprise, with twice the number of co-operatives (80%) surviving their first five years compared with other business ownership models (41%).[5] Cooperatives frequently have social goals which they aim to accomplish by investing a proportion of trading profits back into their communities. As an example of this, in 2013, retail co-operatives in the UK invested 6.9% of their pre-tax profits in the communities in which they trade as compared with 2.4% for other rival supermarkets.[6]
The International Co-operative Alliance was the first international association formed (1895) by the cooperative movement.[citation needed] It includes the World Council of Credit Unions. A second organization formed later in Germany: the International Raiffeisen Union. In the United States, the National Cooperative Business Association (NCBA) serves as the sector's oldest national membership association. It is dedicated to ensuring that cooperative businesses have the same opportunities as other businesses operating in the country and that consumers have access to cooperatives in the marketplace. A U.S. National Cooperative Bank formed in the 1970s.[7] By 2004 a new association focused on worker co-ops was founded, the United States Federation of Worker Cooperatives.
Since 2002 cooperatives and credit unions could be distinguished on the Internet by use of a .coop domain. Since 2014, following International Cooperative Alliance's introduction of the Cooperative Marque, ICA cooperatives and WOCCU credit unions can also be identified by a coop ethical consumerism label.
Seventh largest economy with co-ops "typically more economically resilient than many other forms of enterprise, with twice the number of co-operatives (80%) surviving their first five years compared with other business ownership models (41%).[5]" -- Sounds like a pretty successful approach to doing business.
As pertains to socialism, these are worker owned and managed entities.
Enjoy

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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 8 of 43 (824744)
12-03-2017 9:13 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by Tangle
12-02-2017 7:09 PM


ignore it at your peril.
Enjoy

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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


(1)
Message 13 of 43 (824818)
12-03-2017 11:44 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Tangle
12-03-2017 12:36 PM


RAZD writes:
ignore it at your peril.
Wow, that could have come out of Faith's mouth.
Ignoring it here has given us today's republican congress that caters only to the rich (see new tax plan), and they in turn have given us Trump.
If you don't think that is something to be concerned about, then enjoy it.

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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 14 of 43 (824819)
12-03-2017 11:46 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by New Cat's Eye
12-03-2017 6:45 PM


Re: Common Ownership
Oligarchies exist because SOME people want to get ahead of their neighbours.
They're also profitable...
For some. At the expense of others.
Would you want a vaccine that benefited 1% of the population but made the other 99% sicker?
Enjoy

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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 23 of 43 (824952)
12-05-2017 3:40 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by New Cat's Eye
12-04-2017 11:22 AM


Re: Common Ownership
Yeah, oligarchies exist because some people want to get ahead ...
... and some people are sociopaths that don't care diddly about other people. Not surprisingly capitalism appears to selects for sociopaths to run ruthless companies, as they are disproportionately represented.
... and also because they work well at doing that.
... like I said, sociopaths prosper under capitalism.
Oligarchies exist because rich and powerful people are remarkably effective at getting their way and suppressing poor people. Again, the recent tax bill for example, through corrupting the republican party. Read Howard Zinn for starters.
Enjoy

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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 24 of 43 (824955)
12-05-2017 3:47 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by New Cat's Eye
12-04-2017 11:18 AM


Re: Common Ownership
So now you're going to stalk me because I don't jump to your tune?
What is your route for going about it? And what's stopping you?
Raising peoples awareness for starters. Like yours.
Because you are (a) in denial about the value of democracy v oligarchy and (b) your actual value. Just because you make more than other people and are comfortable in your economic situation, because you are doing better than those on minimum wage.
Curiously, I would have thought that was self evident.
Enjoy

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Replies to this message:
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 26 of 43 (824999)
12-06-2017 11:35 AM
Reply to: Message 25 by New Cat's Eye
12-05-2017 4:30 PM


Re: Common Ownership
Also, there are perfectly normal people who go all amoral when making business decisions. It's like "It's just business!" is supposed to be some bullshit phrase where you don't have to act morally, or something.
I dunno, it's weird.
Not surprisingly capitalism appears to selects for sociopaths to run ruthless companies, as they are disproportionately represented.
It's a lot easier to make amoral business decisions when you don't have morals to begin with.
So we agree that capitalism rewards sociopathic behavior in running companies, and whether or not they were originally sociopathic or became sociopathic in the running of a company is not really relevant, other than that the second could be curable.
Oligarchies exist because rich and powerful people are remarkably effective at getting their way and suppressing poor people.
Oligarchies are also an effective way to run a business.
Curiously effectiveness does not necessarily equal good or equitable. A Roman galley powered by slaves is an effective machine. A Greek one powered by cooperation of soldiers/volunteers is also an effective machine.
Because you are (a) in denial about the value of democracy v oligarchy
Where did I deny that?
Well I kinda get that impression every time you say things like "Oligarchies are also an effective way to run a business" and (Message 96) "I think another part of it is that it's harder to get a bunch of people to agree and take responsibility for everything than it is to just have one motherfucker in charge of the whole thing."
I think that was supposed to be me being in denial of my actual value. It's not that I deny it, its that I don't care about it.
Well, that's one way to resolve cognitive dissonance.
That's a lie.
You are free to think so.
Enjoy

we are limited in our ability to understand
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RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
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Replies to this message:
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


(1)
Message 29 of 43 (825173)
12-09-2017 12:11 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by New Cat's Eye
12-06-2017 8:45 PM


Common Opportunity
Sure, but it determines success. Don't you think oligarchies are more effective than co-ops, be it good or bad? Isn't that a part of why they've been more successful?
Depends on your definitions of effective and success.
Compare Oligarchy Health Insurance in the US with socialist Health Care in Canada. Do they make more money? Yes. Does that make them more effective?
Do they do a better job of providing healthcare? No. Does that make them more successful?
Dude, I'm so convinced. It is time for corporations to become democratically operated institutions. Here's my questions:
What is your route for going about it? ...
Education, political advocating, raising people's awareness, communication, demonstrations, etc
... And what's stopping you?
What makes you think I'm stopped. Or that it will happen overnight?
Enjoy

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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 35 of 43 (825496)
12-15-2017 11:18 AM
Reply to: Message 30 by New Cat's Eye
12-10-2017 10:50 AM


Re: Common Opportunity
Oligarchies do more business than co-ops and so they are more successful. The question is why. Your explanation is basically that people are evil. ...
Not quite, capitalism is sociopathic and attracts sociopaths. There is no room in prConsider ofit for empathy.
Why are they more successful? Consider their massive ad and propaganda campaign against socialism, their purchase of government officials\reps\etc, and the fact that the average american is ill informed and gullible.
Co-ops are less likely to blow their horn and advocate for more co-ops, but everyone seems to buy into the idea that any new business needs to have an owner/boss and an oligarchic organization. Try getting a loan to start a new business. There is a systemic bias to oligarchic organizations.
How's that working out for you?
Well enough. Athens wasn't built in a day, but it was built through democratic process.
Here in town we have a cooperative venture that acts as an incubator for new business, regardless of organization, to provide help getting started. It is a big success.
Enjoy

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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 36 of 43 (825946)
12-19-2017 3:26 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by RAZD
12-15-2017 11:18 AM


Community utilities
Here in town we have a cooperative venture that acts as an incubator for new business, regardless of organization, to provide help getting started. It is a big success.
Most of these are involved in the food industry, with fully certified inspected kitchens to help them get started.
We also have an artist district that is tax free.
So I am working with some other residents to build a Town Solar/wind/water Power system, initially to power just the Town buildings, but capable of expanding to service people in town. This has already been done in several places, so we are not inventing anything here. This would also allow people who don't have suitable locations on their property to participate by investing in panels. We also have a lot of historic buildings, so they could obtain solar power without panels on the buildiings.
And I have started working with the same people to set up a Town community internet service, initially to provide free internet in the town core, but capable of expanding to service people in town. Again this has already been done elsewhere.
We figure that if we can provide cheap dependable power and internet services that businesses will find the town an attractive place to set up.
Enjoy

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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 37 of 43 (825975)
12-20-2017 9:45 AM
Reply to: Message 36 by RAZD
12-19-2017 3:26 PM


Educate Yourself
Now I think he overstates some of the historical aspects, but the message is clear
socialism + democracy + capitalistic economy
Works.
There are many examples of working socialistic capitalistic democracies.
Note: I was most surprised by the Catalan history, and that enriches my understanding of the dispute between the Catalans and the Spanish government.
Enjoy

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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 38 of 43 (825977)
12-20-2017 9:56 AM
Reply to: Message 30 by New Cat's Eye
12-10-2017 10:50 AM


Re: Common Opportunity
Oligarchies do more business than co-ops and so they are more successful. ...
Only because of sheer numbers. When they are compared on businesses in the same market the cooperatives do better. And they certainly are better work environments for the workers.
... I'm saying that from a business perspective, oligarchies work better.
Which is just your opinion. Heavily biased by your personal opinion of what "works better" means.
Take any company you like and replace the oligarchy hierarchy management with a democratically elected hierarchy, where all the people are doing the same jobs, can you honestly say that one is better than the other?
Enjoy

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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 40 of 43 (825994)
12-20-2017 1:46 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by Tangle
12-20-2017 12:49 PM


Re: Common Opportunity
Can you provide evidence for those two statements?
quote:
The Mondragon Corporation is a corporation and federation of worker cooperatives based in the Basque region of Spain. It was founded in the town of Mondragon in 1956 by graduates of a local technical college. Its first product was paraffin heaters. It is the tenth-largest Spanish company in terms of asset turnover and the leading business group in the Basque Country. At the end of 2014, it employed 74,117 people in 257 companies and organizations in four areas of activity: finance, industry, retail and knowledge.[3] By 2015, 74,335 people were employed.
Is an obvious one. Less known is
quote:
Legacoop (Lega Nazionale delle Cooperative e Mutue) is a cooperative federation located in Italy. Legacoop consists of several associations of cooperatives, providing coordination and advocating on the members cooperatives' behalf.
The Federazione Nazionale delle Cooperative was founded in 1886 in Milan by delegates representing cooperative enterprises. In 1893, the federation changed its name to Lega delle Cooperative. At the time the federation included Catholic groups in solidarity with secular/socialist groups. In 1919, the Catholic cooperatives split and formed the Confederazione delle Cooperative Italiane. In the 1920s, the fascist government disposed of cooperatives and unions and the organization was disbanded.[1]
After World War II, Legacoop reformed. Article 45 of the Italian Constitution recognized the social role of cooperatives as based on mutuality and non-profit goals, and involved the government in promoting its development. Cooperatives have flourished in Italy since and are a widespread presence nationwide.
These continue to grow and expand because they work, because they are better corporation models that give back to society rather than take take take.
The cooperatives reduce unemployment and improve their local economy via feedback from cooperatives to the society.
They exist because they are successful.
But the real evidence is in the initial descriptions on this thread:
quote:
... Cooperative businesses are typically more economically resilient than many other forms of enterprise, with twice the number of co-operatives (80%) surviving their first five years compared with other business ownership models (41%).[5] ...
That to me says they do better in one on one comparisons.
quote:
The 5 Most Successful Work Environments (and the 5 Worst)
First, the best:
1. The 'open skeptic' environment
2. The individual-focused environment
3. The no-walls environment
4. The mutual-feedback environment
5. The unified environment
Then, of course, we have the worst:
1. The 9-to-5 environment
2. The 'compartment' environment
3. The sink-or-swim environment
4. The punitive environment
5. The class-system environment
Reading through these you will see that the best environments allow the individual worker to have input/say in how he participates, while the worst environments are dictatorial.
A worker cooperative by definition involves workers in decisions that involve their work environment, while oligarchies by definition are dictatorial at some level such that workers would not have the same degrees of input.
Similar to citizens in countries that are either democratic (social involvement) or oligarchic (dictatorial).
Enjoy

we are limited in our ability to understand
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Replies to this message:
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


(3)
Message 41 of 43 (825996)
12-20-2017 2:02 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by RAZD
12-20-2017 1:46 PM


Capitalism/trickle-down

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