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Author Topic:   The Tension of Faith
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17167
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 1456 of 1540 (826284)
12-28-2017 2:15 AM
Reply to: Message 1452 by Faith
12-27-2017 4:46 PM


Re: Tension from Faith
quote:

Thank you for acknowledging that you have given up your belief in Bible inerrancy due to the arguments of unbelievers.

But that is not what Phat said. Had you managed to provide good honest answers to our arguments - or managed a good pretence - Phat would not have been convinced.

Had you even been more Christian things might have been different.

quote:

I'm saying that's giving in to the world and you would do a lot better to listen to Christian teachers.

If your “Christian teachers” have the answers then why did you not use them ?

quote:

I'm mostly just responding to your recent personal attacks on me

And let us note that you refuse - as usual - to admit to your own bad behaviour. How is that going to go down at the Last Judgement. Confronted with your sins are you going to rant and rave and deny them ?

quote:

Just don't come attacking me as you did from your new man-centered theology

It seems to me that Phat’s theology is less man-centered than yours. Honesty and truth aren’t men. The physical evidence is not a man. Your “Christian teachers” are men.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1452 by Faith, posted 12-27-2017 4:46 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1457 by Faith, posted 12-28-2017 5:18 AM PaulK has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17167
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 1458 of 1540 (826289)
12-28-2017 6:21 AM
Reply to: Message 1457 by Faith
12-28-2017 5:18 AM


Re: Tension from Faith
And you still can’t admit that the evidence is so thoroughly against you that making up ignorant excuses won’t work. Nor will jumping to the wrong conclusion. Nor will calling people stupid or claiming that they don’t understand when they disagree with you. Nor will insisting that your theology must take precedence - when you can’t or won’t argue for that theology in any rational way.

Creationists - many of them better informed than you - have had plenty of time to deal with the order in the fossil record. They haven’t. And that’s just one of many items of evidence you’d need to answer before you can win. So how can you imagine that you can win just be refining your current arguments ?

Even if your pride won’t let you admit how awful your arguments are surely the fact that there are very serious problems that have gone unanswered for 200 years should give you pause.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1457 by Faith, posted 12-28-2017 5:18 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1468 by Faith, posted 12-28-2017 1:48 PM PaulK has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17167
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 1473 of 1540 (826314)
12-28-2017 2:33 PM
Reply to: Message 1468 by Faith
12-28-2017 1:48 PM


Re: Tension from Faith
quote:

I've argued every point made against me, there's nothing to admit.

Refusing to accept the evidence and railing against it hardly helps. Especially when you are reduced to calling observed facts “hallucinations” without explaining how that is even possible.

quote:

It's just a matter of time before the evidence of the Flood gets perfected and comes together.

Because two hundred years of utter failure isn’t enough ? There is no reasonable hopes that the real evidence will “come together” and support the Flood. The very idea is a ridiculous fantasy.

quote:

The gross facts themselves really should be enough to prove it anyway

Sure, blame the “gross facts” for failing to do their job.

quote:

I'm not talking about "winning." That's never going to happen in hidebound EvC. It will have to be acknowledged by more honest people a bit at a time until you can't ignore it.

And the usual false accusations. From one of the least honest - and most hidebound - person on the board, no less.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1468 by Faith, posted 12-28-2017 1:48 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1474 by Faith, posted 12-28-2017 2:45 PM PaulK has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17167
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 1476 of 1540 (826318)
12-28-2017 3:16 PM
Reply to: Message 1474 by Faith
12-28-2017 2:45 PM


Re: Tension from Faith
quote:

Strata and fossils

Great evidence against the Flood. You might as well go around shouting “the Flood’s a stupid lie!”

quote:

Nice straight flat strata just aren't going to form over millions of years, but water does form such layers

Well that’s contradictory for a start - since most strata are marine in origin anyway, why wouldn’t they be flat? You don’t get strata laid down on mountains for obvious reasons.

Then there are all the other features of the strata that contradict an origin in the Flood, such as evaporite deposits. You can’t honestly claim ignorance of these.

quote:

and fossils don't just lie down and die in families, and fossilization needs special conditions to occur, which the Flood would have provided.

I’m not sure how the first point is meant to help you at all. The second is easily answered. Plenty of things can provide those conditions - anoxic lakes are great. Sandstorms can do it too - and have done it. Are you really telling me that you need a global flood to have sandstorms ?

quote:

Those simple obvious facts require rethinking the fossil order since it can't possibly reflect billions of years of evolution

The order of the fossil record is a fact. Facts do not require rethinking because you reject their implications.

Moreover, your facts - in so far as they are facts - do nothing to even encourage us to reject those implications, let alone the fact. That the Flood could produce conditions conducive to fossilisation is not evidence - the more so since there are fossils that were not produced by any sort of flood. And we have already discussed much evidence that the strata were not produced by the Flood - which you have yet to deal with.

So, this answer only shows more facts that you should admit to, but do not,


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1474 by Faith, posted 12-28-2017 2:45 PM Faith has taken no action

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17167
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 1480 of 1540 (826322)
12-28-2017 5:25 PM
Reply to: Message 1475 by Percy
12-28-2017 3:04 PM


Re: Tension from Faith
Faith’s God loves lies and slander, hates the very idea of people understanding the Bible and doesn’t want her to acknowledge her sins, let alone repent.

Does that sound like Satan to you ?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1475 by Percy, posted 12-28-2017 3:04 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1484 by Percy, posted 12-29-2017 7:40 AM PaulK has taken no action

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17167
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 1495 of 1540 (826368)
12-29-2017 11:01 AM
Reply to: Message 1486 by Phat
12-29-2017 8:21 AM


Re: Tension from Faith about faith and works

As for the critics of the Jesus Seminar I had to look up information in context and see what all of the fuss was about from both sides.

You don’t report looking at any side but the critics.

Wikipedia is probably more even-handed and explains the criteria used for judging sayings attributed to Jesus, which would be those relevant to the point Percy was making.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1486 by Phat, posted 12-29-2017 8:21 AM Phat has seen this message

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17167
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.7


(1)
Message 1496 of 1540 (826370)
12-29-2017 11:06 AM
Reply to: Message 1492 by Faith
12-29-2017 10:04 AM


Re: Tension from Faith
quote:

I'll just say it again: there is no hate for anybody in anything I've said. We're ALL fallen, we're ALL sinners, and Jesus came to save, not condemn.

And yet if your sins -or even your intellectual failings - are mentioned you get angry and even look forward to seeing people sent to Hell.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1492 by Faith, posted 12-29-2017 10:04 AM Faith has taken no action

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17167
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 1519 of 1540 (826999)
01-15-2018 1:59 PM
Reply to: Message 1518 by New Cat's Eye
01-15-2018 1:47 PM


Re: Tension from Faith
Just like only you, yourself, can know if you intended to kill ?

It is not a strange idea that the law can make determinations about your mental state, or take those determinations into account in sentencing. It is a common principle called mens rea - and it can even be applied to liability in civil cases.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1518 by New Cat's Eye, posted 01-15-2018 1:47 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1520 by New Cat's Eye, posted 01-15-2018 4:38 PM PaulK has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17167
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 1521 of 1540 (827014)
01-15-2018 4:51 PM
Reply to: Message 1520 by New Cat's Eye
01-15-2018 4:38 PM


Re: Tension from Faith
I think you are the one who needs context. You’re not replying directly to Stile. You are replying to Tangle, who introduced the idea of hate as an aggravating factoring sentencing.

Message 1503


Just as a point of information, English law can decide whether you hate or not

quote:
Under section 146 of the Criminal Justice Act 2003, the court must treat as an aggravating factor the fact that:

an offender demonstrated hostility towards the victim based on his or her disability, sexual orientation or transgender identity (or presumed disability, sexual orientation or transgender identity); or

the offence was motivated by hostility towards persons who have a particular disability, who are of a particular sexual orientation or who are transgender.



quote:

That doesn't have anything to do with mens rea.

When it comes to judging hate as a motive for a criminal act - and sentencing more severley if it is judged to be so - the relationship is pretty obvious.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1520 by New Cat's Eye, posted 01-15-2018 4:38 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1522 by New Cat's Eye, posted 01-15-2018 5:21 PM PaulK has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17167
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 1524 of 1540 (827031)
01-16-2018 12:19 AM
Reply to: Message 1522 by New Cat's Eye
01-15-2018 5:21 PM


Re: Tension from Faith
quote:

Tangle's response to my direct reply to Stile is as irrelevant as you responding with mens rea.

Stile’s point was that bigots are often unaware of their bigotry. And yes, Faith is a good example.

Tangle added the point that it is often possible to identify hate in others - to a standard that the courts will accept.

I added the point that it is not restricted to hate and that in fact judging states of mind - despite it being internal - is a regular part of the court system.

These are all obviously relevant.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1522 by New Cat's Eye, posted 01-15-2018 5:21 PM New Cat's Eye has taken no action

  
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