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Author | Topic: What is an "Ex Believer", anyway? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
You tell me.
Or suppose that Uncle Bill was a patriot yet helped the Russians manipulate the 2016 election? Would I love him or hate him? Phat writes:
So did I. I stopped believing in Santa Claus and God. What's the difference?
Childhood doesnt count. I believed willingly in lots of fantasies back then.
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
I stopped believing in Santa Claus and God. What's the difference? You likely never fully believed in either one. I could see you demanding evidence even when you were six.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith
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ringo Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
You didn't answer the question: What's the difference between believing in Santa Claus and believing in God?
You likely never fully believed in either one. I could see you demanding evidence even when you were six.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9489 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.9 |
Phat writes: You likely never fully believed in either one. I believed totally in both. You can't just hand wave it away like that - people really do belief exactly the way you do; then don't.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Santa Claus can be tested. God cannot.
When I was 7, I put some cookies out for Santa. The next day I found the same cookies back in the cookie jar. The neighbor's roof had new-fallen snow on it Christmas Eve. No signs of chimney entry could be observed the next morning. Add to that the logistics problems with a mere sleigh having room for a billion packages. Even at 7 I was capable of some critical thought after all. Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith
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ringo Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
If you leave cookies for God, what will happen? Is there any sign of God on the roof or in the chimney? What are the logistics problems for creating the earth? Santa Claus can be tested. God cannot. Santa and God, what's the difference? Edited by ringo, : Fixed quote.
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
For one thing, we expect a lot more out of God than we do out of Santa.
Maybe the God you imagined was not big enough or powerful enough to solve the logistics.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith
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ringo Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
You're missing the point. What's the difference between the beliefs? Why does one make more sense than the other? Why can we discard one and not the other?
For one thing, we expect a lot more out of God than we do out of Santa.
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Again...its a lot harder to test for God than it is for Santa.
One test that I use...which I'll admit involves a bit of confirmation bias, is whether prayer does me any good. Arguments can be made that it does no good but unlike you, I don't rely solely on evidence and facts. Santa Claus never gave me anything that I couldn't buy myself. Perhaps for you, the same is true with God. Another big reason is how I felt after my initial conversion. I can admit that I need God...perhaps so much that if he didnt actually exist I would have to make Him up. If I did make Him up, He would be represented by inner peace and serenity and wisdom. Perhaps you have found all of that without the added need for a source. Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith
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ringo Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
Again... I pointed out that you can do the same tests - and get the same results.
Again...its a lot harder to test for God than it is for Santa. Phat writes:
What does God give you that you can't get in other ways? Remember, we're talking about testing, here, not woo.
Santa Claus never gave me anything that I couldn't buy myself. Perhaps for you, the same is true with God.
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
What does God give you that you can't get in other ways? Remember, we're talking about testing, here, not woo. We are talking about emotional security. Woo would be nice as well, but I dont see what I consider it to be very often if at all. Lets just say that there is a lot of insecurity in my life. Mom is dying...money is uncertain...trump and the B-52s provide scant security for an uncertain future. God,, however, seems immune from all that the uncertainties of the world can throw at Him. Security is very important to me. Knowledge can provide some, wisdom can provide some, but Faith seems to fill in the shortfall. Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith
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ringo Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
YOU may be talking about emotional security. I'm talking about your claim that Santa Claus can be tested and God can't. Name some tests that can be done for Santa Claus that can't be done for God.
We are talking about emotional security.
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
ringo writes:
Which is silly. You know that Santa has feet...boots. We don't know what God looks like or whether His presence would even leave any testable hoofprints. Granted all that we know about Santa is other peoples depictions of him...and the same goes for God. jar claims that each of us creates the God we worship....so I suppose that technically you have a point in that you have the ability to create a God whom can be tested. Moreover, you would describe such a God as more honest than one that hides and/or cannot be tested. I pointed out that you can do the same tests - and get the same results. So I digress....Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith
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ringo Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Phat writes:
That's a copout. You conveniently don't know what God looks like as an excuse for finding no evidence. Then you conveniently pretend to know what God thinks. We don't know what God looks like or whether His presence would even leave any testable hoofprints. God uses magic. Santa uses magic. God hides. Santa hides. There's nothing silly about the comparison.
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
So does this mean that when a man matures he no longer has a father?
My Dad passed at age 59 and I was happy to feel freedom from his yoke for awhile...but I found later on in life that I grieved losing a father figure. Perhaps that's why I like talking about God so much. You claim that nobody is gonna save me but myself. I resist accepting that idea. I like the religious idea that we are all His sons. I argue with you because you are one of the prodigal sons. Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith
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