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Author Topic:   Presuppositionalism
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 102 of 142 (819978)
09-15-2017 1:03 PM
Reply to: Message 100 by ringo
09-15-2017 12:56 PM


Re: Evidently Not
ringo writes:
Can you picture God making every crystal personally out of His celestial tinker toys? Or personally lighting the fuse on every molecule of hydrogen in the Hindenberg? To me, the idea of a personal authority behind natural order just seems silly.
I see your point.
IF God thus has a hands-off approach to the natural order, everyone calls Him evil.
Damned if He does and damned if he doesn't.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 100 by ringo, posted 09-15-2017 12:56 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 103 by ringo, posted 09-15-2017 1:14 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 106 of 142 (820226)
09-17-2017 4:59 PM
Reply to: Message 105 by Tangle
09-15-2017 1:26 PM


Re: Common Sense, Non-Sense, and lack of evidence
It has been done.
Lets say that you could hypothetically interview the author of the story(stories)
Would you not ask them their motives and inspirations for writing the story?
Would you ask them why they portrayed God as a villain at times, a rescuer at other times?
What if they said that you were in the story? Would you request helping them to define your character?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 105 by Tangle, posted 09-15-2017 1:26 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 107 by Tangle, posted 09-17-2017 5:29 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 108 of 142 (820250)
09-18-2017 11:14 AM
Reply to: Message 70 by Faith
08-30-2016 8:41 PM


Faith (our beloved member) and Presuppositionalism
Faith, are you a presuppositionalist?
Wiki writes:
Presuppositionalism is a school of Christian apologetics that believes the Christian faith is the only basis for rational thought. It presupposes that the Bible is divine revelation and attempts to expose flaws in other worldviews. It claims that apart from presuppositions, one could not make sense of any human experience, and there can be no set of neutral assumptions from which to reason with a non-Christian.[1] Presuppositionalists claim that a Christian cannot consistently declare their belief in the necessary existence of the God of the Bible and simultaneously argue on the basis of a different set of assumptions that God may not exist and Biblical revelation may not be true.
I quoted Wiki, but perhaps there are better definitions...Im just curious is all.
By the way, I don't think I am one. I believe in God and I believe that Jesus is alive within me (though I often irritate him) but I dont dismiss secular science.
Edited by Phat, : sub title

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by Faith, posted 08-30-2016 8:41 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 109 by Faith, posted 09-18-2017 1:42 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 128 of 142 (826491)
01-02-2018 4:28 PM
Reply to: Message 127 by AlexCaledin
01-02-2018 3:36 PM


Prophecy for America
jar always says that, Alex.
Personally I think that Elder Paisos is spot on. And it doesnt look good for America...we trust too much in human wisdom...I agree.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 127 by AlexCaledin, posted 01-02-2018 3:36 PM AlexCaledin has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 130 by jar, posted 01-02-2018 4:43 PM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 129 of 142 (826492)
01-02-2018 4:29 PM
Reply to: Message 126 by Tangle
01-02-2018 3:08 PM


Figures you would say that.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 126 by Tangle, posted 01-02-2018 3:08 PM Tangle has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 132 of 142 (826508)
01-03-2018 9:21 AM
Reply to: Message 131 by RAZD
01-03-2018 9:01 AM


How Can An Orthodox Guy be a Con?
I'll admit that I accepted it rather easily because for one thing it confirmed what I have always believed...namely
quote:
It is precisely by placing absolute trust in the formulations of the fallen human mind rather than in divine revelation that modern Western man has come to water down or abandon his once-cherished Christian Faith. We Orthodox Christians living in the West must act against this influence by refusing to accord outright trust to our thoughts.
In addition, I figured that since this guy was an Orthodox Christian he was not a flim-flam man like the televangelists in America.
I always question my thoughts. Granted I use logic, reason, and (somewhat) reality, and I am not as ready to blame satan as i used to be...I realize that much of my faulty thinking is my own internal bias...but I am not as skeptical of all religious dogma as atheists are.(and jar)

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 131 by RAZD, posted 01-03-2018 9:01 AM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 135 by jar, posted 01-03-2018 10:34 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 137 by RAZD, posted 01-03-2018 2:05 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 133 of 142 (826509)
01-03-2018 9:24 AM
Reply to: Message 131 by RAZD
01-03-2018 9:01 AM


Message One False Thinking
Is this what you saw in message 1?
quote:
What seems obvious when reading the productions of both groups is that they are largely uninterested in the questions they are ostensibly addressing. What they are interested in is their predetermined answer: they want to get to goddidit as quickly as possible, riding roughshod over facts and reason to get there --- because a solution involving God implies that he exists, and proving his existence is all that really interests them.
I'll admit that you guys have a point.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 131 by RAZD, posted 01-03-2018 9:01 AM RAZD has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 136 of 142 (826516)
01-03-2018 10:44 AM
Reply to: Message 134 by mike the wiz
01-03-2018 10:30 AM


Seeing How Others Think
Hi Mike. Happy New Year! Long Time No See. Allow me to publically share with you my morning.
1) Reading Facebook, I see one of my Christian friends promoting Ray Comforts movie, The Atheist Delusion I watch the first few minutes of it. Then, as I am prone to do, I search YouTube for critics of the movie. Hugo and Jake are movie critics and so I watched their critique.
Atheists Watch Ray Comfort's The Atheist Delusion....be forewarned...Hugo and Jake are brutally honest and somewhat intelligent, though they are crass and very human. They make fun of Jesus, Christianity, and specifically Ray Comfort, though there is truth in what they say. Its noteworthy that they start their rebuttal video drinking some shots. Everybody has to have something, after all.
Anyway, my point is not to take sides. As believers, we have chosen our belief, but in my opinion, God won't smite us for attempting to fully understand how others think. While it is true that some sre smug and arrogant this is true of all humans including many believers.
That's my 2 cents. Cheers, Mike.
Edited by Phat, : spelling

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 134 by mike the wiz, posted 01-03-2018 10:30 AM mike the wiz has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


(1)
Message 138 of 142 (826547)
01-04-2018 8:30 AM
Reply to: Message 137 by RAZD
01-03-2018 2:05 PM


Re: How Can An Orthodox Guy be a Con?
RAZD writes:
Everyone has opinions, some good, some worthless, some downright wrong.
Good point. Our opinions and beliefs are shaped by our experience.
Perhaps my error was that I presupposed that he at least should be right.
Lets get back to presuppositionalism.
Wiki writes:
Presuppositionalism is a school of Christian apologetics that believes the Christian faith is the only basis for rational thought. It presupposes that the Bible is divine revelation and attempts to expose flaws in other worldviews. It claims that apart from presuppositions, one could not make sense of any human experience, and there can be no set of neutral assumptions from which to reason with a non-Christian.
Presuppositionalists claim that a Christian cannot consistently declare their belief in the necessary existence of the God of the Bible and simultaneously argue on the basis of a different set of assumptions that God may not exist and Biblical revelation may not be true.
Perhaps science is trustworthy because it attempts to limit or eliminate prior assumptions about anything. Comments?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 137 by RAZD, posted 01-03-2018 2:05 PM RAZD has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 141 by PaulK, posted 01-04-2018 11:01 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 140 of 142 (826563)
01-04-2018 10:47 AM
Reply to: Message 139 by dwise1
01-04-2018 10:40 AM


Dr. Wise is an unwavering YEC at the same time that he admits that all the evidence points to evolution being true. He also admonishes creationists for taking the evidential approach which is a losing position for them, but rather they should instead take the presuppositional approach which ignores all the evidence.
Is that what he said? Perhaps that sheds a light on why our member Faith believes as she does. And Kurt Wise is no slouch. I wonder if deep down he denies reality or whether his own belief system has found a reason?
Of course, I wonder that about myself, as well. But enough about me.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 139 by dwise1, posted 01-04-2018 10:40 AM dwise1 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 142 by dwise1, posted 01-04-2018 3:43 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
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