Presuppositionalism

No telepathy needed. All we need to do is to follow the evidence, which is abundant. We have the many statements by presuppositionalists of what their beliefs are. In addition, we have the presuppositional literature in which presuppositionalists take great efforts to explain what presuppositionalism is, albeit for the purpose of convincing others to become presuppositionalists.In addition, we can also observe presuppositionalists at work, which has the added benefit of detecting where presuppositionalists are lying in their statements of what their beliefs are. An analogy to that would be young-earth creationists proclaiming belief in truth and that lying is a sin while at the same time lying their asses off in their claims.Then we can analyze all that evidence to arrive at certain conclusions. None of those conclusions are based on telepathy nor have any need for telepathy, but rather they are all based on the abundant evidence that presuppositionalists have provided us.If you have any evidence that the conclusions of that analysis are in error, then you need simply to present that evidence and explain how it shows the conclusions of that analysis to be in error.It really is that simple. So why do you not do that instead of engaging in pure bullshirt?BTW: Your motives? At what point did Dr Adequate ever make any statement about your own personal motives? Do please point us to the exact message and the exact wording.Or if you are unable to do that, then please extend your sincerest apology to Dr Adequate for that accusation. After all, that would be the Christian thing to do.
 
 
 
 
 
Dr. Kurt Wise has a PhD in Geology and studied paleontology under Dr. Steven J. Gould. He was raised a Christian fundamentalist (a dangerous statement, since that sectarian sub-set has splintered greatly with each splinter chafing bitterly at being identified another splinter's name) and was a young-earth creationist before he ever egan his higher-education studies. I have the links stored away somewhere, but cannot find them at this moment. He gave an interview with Answers in Genesis years ago and that should still be on their site. He famously took a pair of scissors to his KJV bible and cut out every passage that he believed depended on YEC beliefs. What was left threatened to fall apart when you picked it up.Dr. Wise is an unwavering YEC at the same time that he admits that all the evidence points to evolution being true. He also admonishes creationists for taking the evidential approach which is a losing position for them, but rather they should instead take the presuppositional approach which ignores all the evidence.

We had talked about Dr. Kurt Wise in another topic (Message 81 -- lurkers should follow that message link, because that message contains extensive quotes of Dr. Wise and about him) and where I gave links to a 1995/1996 interview at Answers in Genesis (bio page starts at http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs/313.asp, article starts at http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs/1318.asp).The "which ignores all the evidence" is my own interpretation of what presuppositionalism does, but that interview does state (my emphasis added):

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Among positive trends in creationism, Dr Wise sees the four-yearly International Conference on Creationism in Pittsburgh as extremely encouraging. He also regards the continual improvement of the Creation Ex Nihilo Technical Journal as exciting. He is pleased to see the trend towards a presuppositional approach to the presentation of creationism (as opposed to the 'evidential' approach).

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I also know that he had stated that he is and remains a YEC because of his religious beliefs, even though he also acknowledges that the evidence strongly supports evolution; from Robert Schadewald's report on a presentation Dr. Wise ("The 1998 International Conference on Creationism", NCSE Reports, Vol 18 No 3, May/June 1998, pp 24-25):

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[Wise] told the audience that evolution is a powerful theory, and that anyone who claims otherwise simply doesn't understand evolution. He said point blank that if it weren't for his religious beliefs -- if he had only the scientific evidence -- he would accept evolution himself.

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I also recall that while Dr. Wise acknowledges that the evidence so far is against YEC, he feels that evidence for YEC does exist, it's just that we haven't found it yet. So he keeps looking for it. Part of that effort is to try to get creationists to roll up their sleeves and start doing the hard work of developing actual creationist scientific models (part of his 1986 ICC presentation; follow the message link above for a much more complete development of that issue). As we all know all to well, the problem for creationism is that, with very few exceptions, creationists haven't developed any actual creationist models and still don't appear likely to.Wise's support of a presuppositional approach instead of an approach based on evidence does make sense for his cause. If you try to use evidence to convince someone of YEC, then you will lose them when they discover that your evidence was bogus or when they find even better evidence that shows YEC to be wrong. Anyone who can be convinced of your position by evidence can also be convinced of an opposing position by evidence. But if you take a presuppositional approach of convincing them that your position is what their religious beliefs require, then it's going to take a lot more to unconvince them once they have accepted your position. Certainly the evidence wouldn't have any effect on them.My position is that they don't really believe in God or the Bible, but rather in their own faulty interpretation of their religion.Bruce Gleason of Back Yard Skeptics (he has a really great back yard which is ideal for meetings) has been in many debates about religion, creationism, etc. He finds trying to debate a presuppositionalist frustrating, because they just ignore anything you come up with. They start by presupposing that God exists, that proves it, end of discussion. To paraphrase from the movie, Paul, you quite literally cannot reason with those people.