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Author | Topic: The Marketing Of Christianity | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
I would say both. To me, I would have to work to get there. Work on being selfish. Work on being proud and vain. Work on being ignorant of the reality surrounding my fellow man and myself.
Now, of course, Original Sin says that we are already ruined creations, anyway...so I'm starting to grow out of that philosophy. Introspection helps. Posting replies at this forum is a form of introspection. I have also found that it is at times easy to deny God and at other times not so easy. Whether or not this action alone earns me a ticket to hell is problematic, however....chiefly because of people like you. I would certainly never send you there. I doubt I would send myself there, though there are days....Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
We know we have those tendencies but fundies like to think that "the Creator of all seen and unseen" didn't create them. All that He created was the possibility of them. Technically I suppose He could be held liable for creating an attractive nuisance, but you are free to sue Him if that will give you any control over your destiny. Some believe that it is far more rational to deny His existence in order to simplify things. I for one believe that it further complicates things. I refuse to be left holding the bag for how my life turns out, especially when I'm already trying to do my best. I cant very well blame you now can I? If God never existed, it would be necessary to create Him so that I could hold Him accountable for how I turn out. Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Phat writes:
I refuse to be left holding the bag for how my life turns out....ringo writes: Yes, basically it does. I will forever remain a believer,hopefully. That says it all, doesn't it? You have admitted before that you never truly were one. A lot of it boils down to what we actually believe. One fear that I have is that my spirituality becomes (or already is) a form of addiction. Kinda like playing the longshot. Perhaps the probability of God (and a friendly One at that) is a billion to one, but think of the payoff! Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Stile,replying to Faith writes: Some people are actually defending their own will. They refuse to budge or entertain any further evidence because they need to believe and to believe without reservation or compromise. I used to feel that way, but more and more I allow myself to question and occasionally doubt because I believe that God understands me. He won't smite me simply for daring to ask a question nor to even express serious doubt. If your beliefs were based on the evidence... then you wouldn't be able to say such a thing.Since further evidence is the only way to change any idea that's actually based on evidence. Therefore, the evidence you saw led you to your Christian beliefs, but your Christian beliefs are actually based on something else. That's what others don't understand. They fear to challenge their own willful decision as if it is somehow blasphemous to do so. Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Im bored...so I'm stirring up a discussion. Hope you have a nice New years, by the way.
jar writes: When you mention that little actually changes in a person, do you mean short term or long term? Stop just believing what you have been told because it is comforting. See what the actual evidence shows. First, there was no sudden or dramatic changes. Paul never experienced Jesus Death,Burial, and Resurrection except from being told the stories AFTER whatever actually happened on his way to Damascus. And very little changed about Paul after the incident; he was still the fanatic, set in his ways, not open to compromise unless it is in his advantage, opinionated person that he was before the incident. Plus, all that is still five to ten years after Jesus death. There was very little change in the Disciples either; remember Peter had been willing to draw sword when Jesus was arrested.I ask myself if I am the same basic believer that I was in 2004 when I arrived at EvC. jar,from earlier belief statement writes: (concerning confirmation)
Bishop: Will you continue in the apostles' teaching and fellowship, in the breaking of bread, and in the prayers? What would you define briefly as the apostles teaching? People: I will, with God's help. How would you describe God's help? What form does it take? Bishop: Will you persevere in resisting evil, and, whenever you fall into sin, repent and return to the Lord?
People: I will, with God's help.
Bishop: Will you proclaim by word and example the Good News of God in Christ?
People: I will, with God's help. In a sentence or so, explain the Good News of God in Christ to us. We discussed earlier how Saul remained similar as Paul and in what ways he changed. You also have mentioned that there is no such thing as sudden transformation...that it is a willful and daily process. I agree with that. Edited by Phat, : No reason given.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
You said that you refuse to take responsibility. Believing in God has little to do with that. On the contrary, people need to take responsibility for their belief as well as their actions. Owning a belief is making a commitment. You said before that even as a child you never wanted to take the responsibility of surrendering yourself to God...perhaps because you saw a hollow symbolism. You were, however, responsible for your choice. Its not that atheists have no beliefs. They believe that they have made the right choice. Some would argue that reality based on evidence is not a choice but a default. I would argue that it nonetheless is a choice if other options have been turned down.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Beliefs don't just evaporate on their own. One consciously chooses to discard them.
Take your own example:
As I've said before, it's the payoff that I don't want. You are choosing not to gamble. In a sense, choosing a belief is a bit like a gamble. Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
ringo writes: Granted. More properly I would say that I chose to believe. Even my parents never mentioned going that far. To them, church was a social event. But who actually chooses a belief? Of course, you could argue that was Santa Claus mentioned in church, I may well have chosen him. My point is that you were obviously part of the scene and were told what to do, but you never chose to believe...which may simply be your character makeup. One bad trait of Biblical Christians is that they never encourage questions nor doubts. Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Not to mention that even if you did believe, the God you would embrace is likely much different from mine. Your God would likely be a hands-off God Who would step back and let His children grow up and make mistakes.
Thus perhaps for you, it does make more sense to wait. it's like ordering a product available later and wisely withholding payment until it actually comes in. Edited by Phat, : No reason given.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Hopefully people at least try and believe in a bigger God than the one they can make up. Is your imaginary God bigger than what science can prove? if not, you let the facts get in the way. May as well stick with Long John Silver!
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
dwise1 writes: As I was rereading this thread, your statement jumped out...and i disagree with it. In my opinion, belief is entirely a choice. The evidence is not that important nor persuasive to me. And not that there is a conclusive amount of it. ...but either you believe or you don't -- you cannot choose to believe. Believers who remain, believers, have more of a need to believe than do former believers, who are easily swayed by evidence. Edited by Phat, : No reason given.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Why?
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
I have no need to believe in Zeus. He has nothing useful to offer me.
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Yes I can accept that premise. Logically, it makes sense.
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
ringo writes: Does a man have the same need for his Mother as he does for a random matronly figure whom he happens to meet? You have the same need for Zeus that you have for Jehovah. Why choose one over the other? Way back when he was born, he well could have chosen the nurse as his bonding influence if he was aware of her before Mom held him. And yet Mom became Mom. Did he choose her? Could he have chosen anyone else?Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith
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